[Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
Moderator: Forum Moderators
Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
[Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
Long time ago I suggested this for mainline. Sadly the post seems to be buried in the forum depths of I/O-error and there's no trace of it.
What?
Several games (i.e. Starcraft 2 most recently) try to help their new players by informing them about which units work extraordinary well or bad against which enemies. I'd like to see that feature in eWes, being displayed as a part of each units information page seen in the in-game Help text.
Why?
The sole purpose of adding this information is to help the new players. As it is currently they would have to create these kind of tables them self or jump back and forth in the in-game Help, reading through different units and trying to compare different combos of attacks & resistances.
While this kind of help admittedly won't automagically always tell the player what the best move or action is, or what the best recruitment is in every situation he/she will ever be in, it still gives a pointer in what would normally, and in most cases, be a bad or good idea. After all, the list don't claim to tell you what is always good to do in a specific situation: They only tell you what seems to often be the case. Also, all this info is already in the help file. It is just not presented in a neat and usable way yet.
How to measure this?
There is no point whatsoever to create intricate formulas since there are many concepts in eWes that will be hard to take into account and that will, in the end, just make this info more confusing than helping. Some examples of them are number of strikes a unit has, potential effects of leadership, slow, ToD etc.
In order to achieve the goal of the concept (to help the new player learn some aspects of the game faster) this needs to be kept simple, so that is helpful to the newcomer. It also needs to be kept simple if we want to have exact and usable lists.
Because of that I suggest that the only thing the lists take any notice of is 2 units attack-type and resistance relations. Nothing less, nothing more. (Once these are established there could be some very hand made tweaks done to what goes on and off a list, depending on factors I won't discuss in depth for now. If however, all are happy without tweaking, then it could be left that way.)
Implementing it
Update the Help file so that each units info page in it also shows 2 rows/sections with unit names (and/or icons of each unit on that list). One section is called "Strong against" and the other "Weak against". Try out Starcraft 2 or any of the other thousand games that use these kind of helpful pointers for inspiration.
The help file-update can either be done manually or it can be scripted/coded so that lists are auto-generated, by extracting and comparing units stats from the Default Era or whatever era is/will be Default in eWes.
Which units go on the lists?
A decision that has to be made is how huge x should be: x equals the %-bonus a unit would get when attacking another unit due to the combination of the attackers potential weapon type vs the defenders resistance. (Nothing else, for now) Since a unit in Wesnoth can get very small amounts of bonuses it would be counterproductive to fill the strong & bad-against lists with every enemy the unit was somewhat strong or somewhat weak against.
Instead, I suggest that x should equal ≥20% (or ≥25%). If that x was used, it would mean that only units that have an attack bonus of 20% or more against their targets, in order to have that target listed in it's "Strong against"-list. I have no desire to campaign for an exact value of x, but reason tells us it has to be pretty high in order for the lists to be meaningful at all, but not too high since it would empty them.
But this sucks because...
It doesn't teach a player how to play the game.
Right. The tutorial does. To a very limited part. This isn't intended to teach the player how to play the game. It's intended to teach him/her how some units relate to each other and what you would want to watch out for when you recruit x, or how you could probably easily counter y with z etc. And that is a part learning the game. It doesn't account for all the other parts.
People have no need of this...
a) People have no need of all info that is in the help-file already or perhaps they have no need of the Drakes. Some people have no need of anything. So what? Good for them. Obviously such people are the worst group to design a game around.
b) While expert players may know all relations between all units by heart, normal players don't, and novices and newcomers certainly do not. It can easily be proven and seems to be proven every day on the MP-server when watching hillarious games between newcomers that are virtually clueless about how units relate to each other.
c) If people have no need of the relations of units then why do we tell them about the resistance and attack types? Clearly the info is already there in order to be used for some kind of meta-deduction privately done by the user. Why not just compile that info and add nice viewable lists that offer mere mortals a graphical overview?
d) Wesnoth has plenty of units, unit paths and factions. That lone suggests that this is long time overdue.
It gives the wrong impression to the newcomer that a unit is always a good/bad idea to recruit against another.
It would give the correct impression to that player that a unit is generally a good/bad idea against another. Any thinking person that even has the slightest hint about what a strategy game is would of course recognize that there is way much more to Wesnoth than simply recruiting according to these lists. There's a difference between hard & soft counters, among many other factors that play in. I'd go as far as saying that if Blizzard and plenty of companies with top developers deem this kind of help info usable for their games, they are likely to have already thought of this objection and also deemed that it's more often false than true.
What?
Several games (i.e. Starcraft 2 most recently) try to help their new players by informing them about which units work extraordinary well or bad against which enemies. I'd like to see that feature in eWes, being displayed as a part of each units information page seen in the in-game Help text.
Why?
The sole purpose of adding this information is to help the new players. As it is currently they would have to create these kind of tables them self or jump back and forth in the in-game Help, reading through different units and trying to compare different combos of attacks & resistances.
While this kind of help admittedly won't automagically always tell the player what the best move or action is, or what the best recruitment is in every situation he/she will ever be in, it still gives a pointer in what would normally, and in most cases, be a bad or good idea. After all, the list don't claim to tell you what is always good to do in a specific situation: They only tell you what seems to often be the case. Also, all this info is already in the help file. It is just not presented in a neat and usable way yet.
Example:
There is no point whatsoever to create intricate formulas since there are many concepts in eWes that will be hard to take into account and that will, in the end, just make this info more confusing than helping. Some examples of them are number of strikes a unit has, potential effects of leadership, slow, ToD etc.
In order to achieve the goal of the concept (to help the new player learn some aspects of the game faster) this needs to be kept simple, so that is helpful to the newcomer. It also needs to be kept simple if we want to have exact and usable lists.
Because of that I suggest that the only thing the lists take any notice of is 2 units attack-type and resistance relations. Nothing less, nothing more. (Once these are established there could be some very hand made tweaks done to what goes on and off a list, depending on factors I won't discuss in depth for now. If however, all are happy without tweaking, then it could be left that way.)
Implementing it
Update the Help file so that each units info page in it also shows 2 rows/sections with unit names (and/or icons of each unit on that list). One section is called "Strong against" and the other "Weak against". Try out Starcraft 2 or any of the other thousand games that use these kind of helpful pointers for inspiration.
The help file-update can either be done manually or it can be scripted/coded so that lists are auto-generated, by extracting and comparing units stats from the Default Era or whatever era is/will be Default in eWes.
Which units go on the lists?
A decision that has to be made is how huge x should be: x equals the %-bonus a unit would get when attacking another unit due to the combination of the attackers potential weapon type vs the defenders resistance. (Nothing else, for now) Since a unit in Wesnoth can get very small amounts of bonuses it would be counterproductive to fill the strong & bad-against lists with every enemy the unit was somewhat strong or somewhat weak against.
Instead, I suggest that x should equal ≥20% (or ≥25%). If that x was used, it would mean that only units that have an attack bonus of 20% or more against their targets, in order to have that target listed in it's "Strong against"-list. I have no desire to campaign for an exact value of x, but reason tells us it has to be pretty high in order for the lists to be meaningful at all, but not too high since it would empty them.
But this sucks because...
It doesn't teach a player how to play the game.
Right. The tutorial does. To a very limited part. This isn't intended to teach the player how to play the game. It's intended to teach him/her how some units relate to each other and what you would want to watch out for when you recruit x, or how you could probably easily counter y with z etc. And that is a part learning the game. It doesn't account for all the other parts.
People have no need of this...
a) People have no need of all info that is in the help-file already or perhaps they have no need of the Drakes. Some people have no need of anything. So what? Good for them. Obviously such people are the worst group to design a game around.
b) While expert players may know all relations between all units by heart, normal players don't, and novices and newcomers certainly do not. It can easily be proven and seems to be proven every day on the MP-server when watching hillarious games between newcomers that are virtually clueless about how units relate to each other.
c) If people have no need of the relations of units then why do we tell them about the resistance and attack types? Clearly the info is already there in order to be used for some kind of meta-deduction privately done by the user. Why not just compile that info and add nice viewable lists that offer mere mortals a graphical overview?
d) Wesnoth has plenty of units, unit paths and factions. That lone suggests that this is long time overdue.
It gives the wrong impression to the newcomer that a unit is always a good/bad idea to recruit against another.
It would give the correct impression to that player that a unit is generally a good/bad idea against another. Any thinking person that even has the slightest hint about what a strategy game is would of course recognize that there is way much more to Wesnoth than simply recruiting according to these lists. There's a difference between hard & soft counters, among many other factors that play in. I'd go as far as saying that if Blizzard and plenty of companies with top developers deem this kind of help info usable for their games, they are likely to have already thought of this objection and also deemed that it's more often false than true.
Re: [Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
I think this could be very helpful to newbies, but less helpful for experienced players. To eliminate the "not needed" problem this could be implemented as "optional".
Last edited by sur.nhm on June 16th, 2010, 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not really around any more, but you can find me in TvTropes.
Re: [Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
I guess that you with "less helpful for experienced players" mean "more seldom/never used by experienced players". From that you conclude it should be made optional.sur.nhm wrote:I think this could be very helpful to newbies, but less helpgul for experienced players. To eliminate the "not needed" problem this could be implemented as "optional".
If so, the same logic (that something is supposedly not used by an experienced player) dictates the whole helpfile and/or all sections in a units description should be made optional.
Please don't read this as if I'm against making it optional. I'm not. I just don't believe your argument is sound, as I hopefully show above. The whole assumption that something should be made optional because an experienced player doesn't use it is thinking backwards: a) All players are non-experienced from the start, per definition. The help file is directed towards the non-experienced primarily b) Whenever a player is experienced he/she usually seldom use the help text anyway - it's only used to check out somethings quickly. I.e. I as an experienced player know what defense a Wose gets when it's in trees. Despite that, I "have to" see that number and the two defense-table. So what?
Re: [Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
I really don't understand your point.eyerouge wrote:I guess that you with "less helpful for experienced players" mean "more seldom/never used by experienced players". From that you conclude it should be made optional.sur.nhm wrote:I think this could be very helpful to newbies, but less helpgul for experienced players. To eliminate the "not needed" problem this could be implemented as "optional".
If so, the same logic (that something is supposedly not used by an experienced player) dictates the whole helpfile and/or all sections in a units description should be made optional.
Please don't read this as if I'm against making it optional. I'm not. I just don't believe your argument is sound, as I hopefully show above. The whole assumption that something should be made optional because an experienced player doesn't use it is thinking backwards: a) All players are non-experienced from the start, per definition. The help file is directed towards the non-experienced primarily b) Whenever a player is experienced he/she usually seldom use the help text anyway - it's only used to check out somethings quickly. I.e. I as an experienced player know what defense a Wose gets when it's in trees. Despite that, I "have to" see that number and the two defense-table. So what?
Anyway, what I meant is that this idea is useful, but some players won't want it popping up (whatever) so it should be optional.
I'm not really around any more, but you can find me in TvTropes.
Re: [Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
Yes, I think there has been some kind of misunderstanding here:sur.nhm wrote:I really don't understand your point.
Anyway, what I meant is that this idea is useful, but some players won't want it popping up (whatever) so it should be optional.
1. The info should be in the help file.
2. The help file only pops up if a player intentionally wants it to pop up.
3. If you on the other hand don't want the info to be in the help file on the grounds that it's not of use to the expert player then the same can be said about the rest of the help file, and, in conclusion we could skip out on the whole lot of it if that argument would be sound. As it shows, it's not.
Re: [Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
Maybe I missed something but:
have you ever noticed that when you select a unit and move your mouse over their damage types (right side of the screen) you get the information against which units this damage type is strong and against which units it is weak?
have you ever noticed that when you select a unit and move your mouse over their damage types (right side of the screen) you get the information against which units this damage type is strong and against which units it is weak?
Theoretically there is no difference between theory and practice. Practically there is.
Re: [Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
- Sorry for resurrecting a 23-day-old thread, but the information only show the bonus when fighting against some enemy units, this not really useful in some cases especially for new player.Tshemmp wrote:Maybe I missed something but:
have you ever noticed that when you select a unit and move your mouse over their damage types (right side of the screen) you get the information against which units this damage type is strong and against which units it is weak?
Why? For example, a new player playing Drake vs Undead, at night, (s)he look a the tool-tip and decided to attack a Bone Shooter with a Drake Burner because it have +20% bonus???
So? I support eyerouge, in addition, the information should only tell player which enemy that unit would work extraordinary well or bad against but only on the same level
Example: Drake Burner vs Skeleton Archer but not vs Bone Shooter or Bane bow.
Edit: Typo
Last edited by hhyloc on August 6th, 2010, 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
R.I.P
Re: [Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
I agree with hhyloc and eyerouge. 
Best regards,
Steven.
Best regards,
Steven.
My Life Purpose Is To Teach The World To Fish For Life. I AM Steven Russell Lynch Abundance That I AM. Empowerment Is My Name And Fostering Self-Responsibility Is My Game.
Re: [Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
Thanks!
Also, another reason (I forgot to mention in my first post) for why the information won't always useful especially for new players is: melee vs melee or ranged vs ranged isn't always the best idea even if the defender is vulnerable to the attack (given that the attacker doesn't have good resistance to the defender's counter attack or even worse, negative resistance)
Example: Heavy Infantry vs Troll
Also, another reason (I forgot to mention in my first post) for why the information won't always useful especially for new players is: melee vs melee or ranged vs ranged isn't always the best idea even if the defender is vulnerable to the attack (given that the attacker doesn't have good resistance to the defender's counter attack or even worse, negative resistance)
Example: Heavy Infantry vs Troll
R.I.P
-
Simons Mith
- Posts: 821
- Joined: January 27th, 2005, 10:46 pm
- Location: Twickenham
- Contact:
Re: [Suggestion] Show Strong/Weak VS
Strong vs and Weak vs information might be useful to one notably weak player we all encounter regularly; the AI itself. So if this feature is implemented, can it be done in a way that allows the AI to make use of it? In particular, I'd like to see a likes fighting / hates fighting and likes accompanying / hates accompanying macro of some kind. So that we can code things like 'Ulfs like fighting Dark Adepts and elf shamans'; 'elf shamen like accompanying heavy infantry', and see the appropriate behaviour from the AI. Even better, if this information can be customised (ideally down to unit level) then a scenario writer could create, say, a group of orc warriors who hated saurians and went out of their way to attack them, and that behaviour can be written in at the WML level.