What do levels mean?

[Araja]

I think johndh's system makes more sense, if just because it reaches hero and above a little later. As has already been said, classing a level 2 as a hero doesn't really make sense when you consider how common they are in both campaigns and MP. Veteran/Officer does seem too human-oriented, but I think it would work if you dropped the "Officer" part. Most L2 units could conceivably be described as a veteran, with only a few exceptions such as trolls, magi and woses.

Granted some leadership units might make more sense as officers, but any Lieutennant or Elvish Captain has fought his way up from first level, so veteran still applies.

[Darker_Dreams]

Something like this has one main goals; Map to the game as designed.
1) each time "heroic" is pushed up in levels it makes units of level 2 and higher seem like they should be more common, which contradicts stated dev intent. Wesnoth is intended to focus on a lot of level 1's with a smattering of lvl 2's, and higher level units appearing should be very rare in MP and the province of later stages of campaigns.

2) Veteran simply doesn't cover all the cases; vanguard, exemplar, luminary, archtype... anything other than Veteran that can cover the Wose, Troll, or Undead that has never been to war but must still be feared. I chose Hero because it best described the relationship of now-legendary individuals to those around them; Jason to the argonauts, Odysseus to his men... and while the leaders are our legends, their men are our heroes. It's also good because other games use it for the same kinds of individuals- more than ordinary soldiers but less than supermen.

[Araja]

Hmmm...I still don't think it makes sense. Pikemen, Elvish Riders, Dwarvish Steelclads, Orcish Slayers, Revenants, Drake Warriors, none of them could really be called a "hero". In campaigns, you sometimes go up against entire armies which consist either mostly or entirely of level 2 units. Wesnoth may be intended to have a "smattering" of level 2s (I'm taking your word on that), but they are by no means unusual. Be it MP or campaign, it's an usual battle that goes by without at least a few advancements.

I chose Hero because it best described the relationship of now-legendary individuals to those around them; Jason to the argonauts, Odysseus to his men... and while the leaders are our legends, their men are our heroes.

Call me ignorant, but I don't see what point your trying to make with those examples. That level 2s are heroic by being closer to their leaders?...I think I misunderstood.

I'll agree veteran doesn't cover all cases, but hero still seems excessive, at least in my eyes. I might have focused too much on the "superman" side of things, as after all anyone who manages to survive a few battles is a hero of sorts. Still, I think that to most people a hero is more than just a regular guy who's about 50% better at everything.

Maybe for 2nd and 3rd levels there is no definitive title than can cover all races.

[Darker_Dreams]

I chose Hero because it best described the relationship of now-legendary individuals to those around them; Jason to the argonauts, Odysseus to his men... and while the leaders are our legends, their men are our heroes.

Call me ignorant, but I don't see what point your trying to make with those examples. That level 2s are heroic by being closer to their leaders?...I think I misunderstood.

I think you did. My point was that being "heroic" doesn't mean you're superman. My point was that the guys who surround legends are still heroes in their own right.

I'll agree veteran doesn't cover all cases, but hero still seems excessive, at least in my eyes. I might have focused too much on the "superman" side of things, as after all anyone who manages to survive a few battles is a hero of sorts. Still, I think that to most people a hero is more than just a regular guy who's about 50% better at everything.

You're right that to most people a hero is more than "a regular guy who's about 50% better at everything." They're someone who is an inspiration, someone they can look to for leadership and look at as an example... That's exactly what I mean by calling level 2's heroes. Sure, they're Veterans, Officers, or elite troops lead by an even more senior individual.
Less than legends, more than mere mortals? That sounds, to me, like the definition of a hero. I guess my confusion is why you think being a Veteran (in the traditional; actively participated in combat and survived, probably more times than blind luck would account for) would mean something less.

Maybe for 2nd and 3rd levels there is no definitive title than can cover all races.

I'm pretty happy with my choice, and I've given other suggestions that I'd be happier with than "veteran."

[Schierke]

If i recall correctly, in The Son of The Black Eye an army consisting of only level 2 units is referred to as "veteran".

I really can't imagine how a whole army could be made of "heroes".

[Darker_Dreams]

You don't have to imagine it. That would be the example I was trying to make with Jason and the Argonauts. Another would be the 300 Spartans. Really, I can keep going on that riff if you'd like, history and mythology are rife with them.
Modern examples might be the Green Berets or Ranger battalions from the US.

But you did answer a bit that I meant to address and failed to; armies of lvl 2's and lvl 3's showing up in scenarios... even ignoring the pure game aspect of that usually it indicates an escalation of threat- the use of more experienced, better armed, or otherwise more dangerous troops. It doesn't mean that the units should be considered less, or that they should be considered more common- the single player scenarios, especially in the later levels, tend to be the kind of epic, world shaping battles that leave myths and legends in their wake.

[Araja]

I think I get your point now, but it's a very different aspect of the word "hero" then people would think of in a fantasy game setting: The kind expected to be far more powerful than the average individual. Examples would be almost every fantasy game ever made, and most Wesnoth RPGs. To explain that generalization: Heroes in this setting are very powerful by tradition, even though Wesnoth doesn't normally allow people to reach that level.

The type I think you're talking about is someone who has merely triumphed against the odds or shown an unusual level of skill. In a way, you could call any L2 unit a hero just to indicate what it's been through. I get it now, but it's still a confusing title as heroes in games are generally expected to be powerful rather than just "better" or "less common". You could say that the title technically makes sense, but isn't the normal usage of the word in this setting.

Or in other terms: More like a real life "hero" than a game hero, which I suppose wouldn't quite apply to L3 units either. This probably explains why people suggested "Elite" for third level units earlier in the thread. Not that I'm doing the same, I'm just pointing out that hero is a very strong word in this kind of setting.

[thespaceinvader]

Hero is a word which has become devalued in modern society.

In our terms, Konrad is the hero. Or his equivalent in a given campaign.

I dislike pigeonholing what levels mean like this (given that levels apply to non-sentient units as well), but veteran/elite are certainly more appropriate terms than hero.

Even in modern terms, rangers, green berets, SAS, these men are heroIC, but in military terms they are elite special forces.

[Darker_Dreams]

I remember now having some of the same internal arguments with myself about use of the word "hero." Particularly "hero" as "good guy protagonist." I was reminded of what solved it for me when I went looking at the unit tree for examples and counterexamples just now; the term "hero" is used exactly twice in the unit tree. Troll Hero and Elvish Hero are both level 2 units.

As for the non-sentients, my thought process was mapped to the D&D idea of "challenges people in this category of ability are supposed to face are ____ challenges." A hero faces heroic challenges, a legend faces legendary challenges, etc.

[Drakefriend]

In fact, an Ancient Greek "heros" usually was a demigod, although there are a few human ones (Iason, Theseus). However, it meant a great person from the "Heroic" Age of the Hellenic World. Considering this point, calling a simply more experienced soldier a hero is quite an offense against those mystical heroes.