Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

[fog_of_gold]

Sorry I didn't answer that long time. I was away.

@slaver:
I suggest you to make a plague only available if on village. That would be more mainline like but still something new. It would be more KISS anyway since set_menu_item is never really KISS, if you thought about that.

@Dazzle:
I'm for setting the cth to x%, too. I think, you should set the cth to 20%. It would help your scavenger to surive and it would be, even against 30% defence, less strong than slow. If you follow my prooven part of my formula, dazzle decrease enemy's damage to (1/70%)/(1/20%)=2/7=~29%%. Slow sets enemy's damage to 50% but also halves the moves. Yes, the moves are the unprooven part of the formula, but they'd decrease the power proportional to the damage to 50% making in total 25%.

@swimmer:
The scavengers aren't meant to fight, are they? -Also, you missunderstood me: I didn't advice to make everyone be a swimmer, I adviced to make many units be able to move in water. It's just because of the scavenger they can fight in water so this faction wouldn't be a swimmer faction. I imagined to stay with the bad defences or go even worther. And therefore you need scavengers to keep your defences high. You understand?

[Dixie]

Sorry I didn't answer that long time. I was away.

No problem

@slaver:
I suggest you to make a plague only available if on village. That would be more mainline like but still something new. It would be more KISS anyway since set_menu_item is never really KISS, if you thought about that.

In fact, I was more thinking about the lines of slaves spawning by themselves around a slaver standing on a village, no right-clic menu or anything, as long as the limit of 2 or 3 per slaver is repected. Note that it'd just be a total, slaves would not necessarily be assigned to a particuler slaver. I figured this was kinda kiss too. Plague could be interesting too (in fact, it could be added), but then slaves would be really rare and sparse. And Slavers would need to be tougher.

@Dazzle:
I'm for setting the cth to x%, too. I think, you should set the cth to 20%. It would help your scavenger to surive and it would be, even against 30% defence, less strong than slow. If you follow my prooven part of my formula, dazzle decrease enemy's damage to (1/70%)/(1/20%)=2/7=~29%%. Slow sets enemy's damage to 50% but also halves the moves. Yes, the moves are the unprooven part of the formula, but they'd decrease the power proportional to the damage to 50% making in total 25%.

Seriously, 20%? Maybe. It's true that it's not like a free area ability, they still have to hit every enemy out there, and the scavengers are frail.

@swimmer:
The scavengers aren't meant to fight, are they? -Also, you missunderstood me: I didn't advice to make everyone be a swimmer, I adviced to make many units be able to move in water. It's just because of the scavenger they can fight in water so this faction wouldn't be a swimmer faction. I imagined to stay with the bad defences or go even worther. And therefore you need scavengers to keep your defences high. You understand?

Hm, yeah, I get what you meant, I think. I'd have to double-check, but I think most bots can already move in water, albeit slowly and with poor defenses. So I suppose it mostly already is somewhat that way?

[fog_of_gold]

They move too slowly in water. The slowliest ones may move just one hex in water. Also, you can't move in deep water.

In fact, I was more thinking about the lines of slaves spawning by themselves around a slaver standing on a village, no right-clic menu or anything, as long as the limit of 2 or 3 per slaver is repected. Note that it'd just be a total, slaves would not necessarily be assigned to a particuler slaver. I figured this was kinda kiss too. Plague could be interesting too (in fact, it could be added), but then slaves would be really rare and sparse. And Slavers would need to be tougher.

You are right, that wouldn't fit. Autoproducing should be nice and KISS, too. So you presuaded me. About vanishing, I think, you shouldn't do this since it's too difficult. You'd need to tell it the player in a serious way being only possible with a big message printing just "turns to surive: x". Also, it's more KISS without. You can explain, it has already be done in mainline anyway since leaders over the whole map can talk to each other, the map is a lot of smaller than it looks like. The slavers can watch escaping slaves and recatch them.

[Gwynnedrion]

Will there be an update soon?

[Dixie]

Well, I updated it last week to include the new bots. It is true that now that I have a good idea of what I want for the pirates, I could just use up most of my weekend and next week to code them and have a new release in two weeks, maybe, but I was more thinking about drawing more ninjas sprites for the time being. When I have a few "complete" ones, I'll post them on here for you guys who don't follow the art thread (can't blame you! )

I'm still thinking about the possibility of adding a cowboy unit. I feel like they're missing something, but I can't put my finger exactly on it. Maybe a mounted unit, since I wanted them to be a fast and furious faction first and foremost, but I relinquish the idea of a mounted indian. I'd prefer not to put too much of an accent on indians, a cowboy would be better imo...

Any other comment welcome, as usual!

EDIT:
Here are my 3 first sprites Not perfect, but I'm still somewhat proud, considering my uther lack of any beforehand experience.

[fog_of_gold]

I can tell you what's missing: There are no swimmers.

[Dixie]

Hmm, you are not wrong on that one, it's true that the cowboys don,t really have anything to control water... What would you suggest? A ferry boat? Not sure it's fitting... Or just give the mounted cowboys better mobility in water, rendering them that much more useful? Or a special mounted unit whose horse fares okay in water?.. Swimming indian/indians in canoë? And yet, we have no mounted indian, and it doesn't help give a stronger presence to the cowboys: it'll tilt the balance that much more towards half-cowboys/half-indians.

We could have a mounted indian that evolves from the current hunter, perhaps, plus a new indian canoë unit, and find some other cowboy unit to add (ideally mounted)? Unless I just split the mounted cowboy from the cavalry and make them different units, maybe find a few more lv2s or lv3s to fill the trees? I'll be thinking about it some more.

On a side note, some more sprites, maybe not 100% definitive, but almost there, I think:

new ninjas tree.png (19.49 KiB) Viewed 3474 times

[Gwynnedrion]

That's good since I noticed that the sprites previously used are gone with the new update and that the units are back to mainline units. A whole faction only consisting with the troll whelp sprite etc.

[lindsay40k]

Re Cowboys. Is there any reason - other than the time it'd take - not to add Indians as a standalone faction? What with the Canoeist idea, there's plenty of scope to add a bow-armed Hunter and a cavalry unit to the existing meleeist and caster to have a solid lineup of core units.

To give the Cowboys something to do in the water, what about a hunter type of their own? Plenty of rugged survivalist types in the Old West archetypes. Could have lines that develop it into a trapper or a prospector.


Re Robots. A suggestion has been made to me to make Refiners more productive on Sand tiles. Thoughts? My gut feeling is if it'd be possible to make it so that this only applies to Sand tiles touching at least two other Sand tiles and no more than one Water tile, that might make it feel more like a desert rig than something that can find Texas Tea in a golf bunker

There's also scope for an offshore rig vessel if we go with the naval 'bot idea. I have to say, I like the idea of a steamboat looking thing, and the sewer skater & gunboat lines would be well contrasted with something the satirises the Deepwater Horizon with some kind of slick around it when waterborne that has some kind of effect along the lines of the Smog Belcher line. As for its attacks... I think an oil spray might be interesting - either make it Poisoning, or - wait for it - confer some kind of status effect (I'm thinking make it reduce CTH of physical attacks against the Oiled unit) whilst increasing Fire damage on the Oiled unit? Could make for interesting unit combos. There's scope for Oiled status also increasing movement for Mechanical units. Would be interesting, a buff that also increases a vulnerability... and of course, it'd be a fitting attack for the Oiler/Refiner line as well.

[Dixie]

Re Cowboys. Is there any reason - other than the time it'd take - not to add Indians as a standalone faction? What with the Canoeist idea, there's plenty of scope to add a bow-armed Hunter and a cavalry unit to the existing meleeist and caster to have a solid lineup of core units.

Well, here are my two main reasons: 1) it's for thematic purpose, since I figured I'd have an era for the wild west, an era for pirates, an era for oriental ninjas and such, etc. and 2) I felt they had more to bring to cowboys than they would have brought the era by themselves. So yeah, there could be plenty of ideas to make a standalone indian faction, although they might somewhat ressemble the cowboys in some regards. But then, the cowboys would be lacking something. And it's not necessarily because they are distinctive that they should have their faction. Look at mainline, for instance: you could pretty much have standalone saurian/outlaw/dwarves/merfolk/troll/wose factions, but they bring more gameplay-wise from being part of other groups. So unless someone had really awesome arguments, I don't think I want indians being standalone. When (if) I make a campaign of the era someday, I might maybe add a few indians or stuff so there are indians-only AIs, but factions can oftentimes be messed up in campaigns, it's more for story purposes than gameplay ones.

To give the Cowboys something to do in the water, what about a hunter type of their own? Plenty of rugged survivalist types in the Old West archetypes. Could have lines that develop it into a trapper or a prospector.

That, on the other hand, is a pretty darn good idea. I somewhat already had the prospector at the beginning, but the trapper/explorer idea is neat.

Re Robots. A suggestion has been made to me to make Refiners more productive on Sand tiles. Thoughts? My gut feeling is if it'd be possible to make it so that this only applies to Sand tiles touching at least two other Sand tiles and no more than one Water tile, that might make it feel more like a desert rig than something that can find Texas Tea in a golf bunker

Although it is logical, explainable and probably doable, I feel there is little use for such an ability. And it's largely un-kiss. And you have to explain that somewhere: all these conditions in an ability description would make for a humongous ability-wall-of-text. So I'm not sure it's worth it to implement it.

There's also scope for an offshore rig vessel if we go with the naval 'bot idea. I have to say, I like the idea of a steamboat looking thing, and the sewer skater & gunboat lines would be well contrasted with something the satirises the Deepwater Horizon with some kind of slick around it when waterborne that has some kind of effect along the lines of the Smog Belcher line. As for its attacks... I think an oil spray might be interesting - either make it Poisoning, or - wait for it - confer some kind of status effect (I'm thinking make it reduce CTH of physical attacks against the Oiled unit) whilst increasing Fire damage on the Oiled unit? Could make for interesting unit combos. There's scope for Oiled status also increasing movement for Mechanical units. Would be interesting, a buff that also increases a vulnerability... and of course, it'd be a fitting attack for the Oiler/Refiner line as well.

Yeah, so either we make a ship unit (which might turn out pretty interesting), either we make the average bot a little more profecient in water and count on the support of the scavengers to make their defense decent. I dunno which is more appropriate. I feel the former might be more interesting thematically speaking, but the latter might be more so strategically speaking. So I'm not really decided yet.

Appart from that: If I'm not sure about creating one more unit, I certainly am less so about creating two. Sewer-Skater could be the lv0? And I'm not sure the off-shore platform to generate gold is such a good idea: the oiler already does a pretty good job of that.

About oil attack/oiled status: my first idea would be to make it somewhat similar to dazzle, but instead of capping CTH, it would cap a unit's defense (at like 40% max, maybe). And maybe lower fire resistance by 10 or 20%. It could be removed either by a) healing or b) going in water c) being touched by a fire attack. Or maybe just turn-fade like slow and dazzle? I don't know if the bots really need it, though, but it could certainly be an interesting terrain ignoring feature, which seem to be a recurring thematic, what with Dazzle and the Bulldozer.

But what unit to give this to? I feel such a useful ability would be pointless to give to a naval unit, especially if the status is to be removed in water. It could be the scavenger, or a new, alternative branch for them, since they are already support-freaks, but scavengers aren't that oil-oriented. Or it could be the oiler and subsequent level ups (extractor/refiner), either on a new ranged attack or on melee, but I'm not sure if I feel they are already useful enough, generating gold and all and this would call for some nerfing. Although oilers are pretty weak with their pierce resistance, compared to other units, so maybe it ain't that bad... Also, such an ability would be most useful having on lv1...

A most interesting idea, in any case, but one that doesn't solve our initial problem. More thoughts needed on this.

[fog_of_gold]

@bots|swimmer:
What, if we do both? -We could make a tank to make it possible to protect the scavengers and upper the moves in water. I'm not sure, if you are able to protect the scavengers in water since all the tanks are slowly(oiler, tank). That would make it possible to create a fast tank in water being slowly on land and if you wonna do damage in water, you'll need the scavengers and other units. Also, there are less units need to be fast in water. You'd be able to keep tank's movementcosts 3.

@oiling attack:
I think it's good to make it have in one special unit lvl2 unit. Since the Flamespitter is too weak, we could give it him. It would be interesting if you make it affect every time it doesn't hit since the oil didn't burn. And since the oil is spilling in a wide area, the enemy will be always been hit. Therefore it would make sense to give magic.

[Dixie]

@bots|swimmer:
What, if we do both? -We could make a tank to make it possible to protect the scavengers and upper the moves in water. I'm not sure, if you are able to protect the scavengers in water since all the tanks are slowly(oiler, tank). That would make it possible to create a fast tank in water being slowly on land and if you wonna do damage in water, you'll need the scavengers and other units. Also, there are less units need to be fast in water. You'd be able to keep tank's movementcosts 3.

Hmmm... Giving the tank better water mobility and making a new boat-bot lv2 and lv3 from it is an interesting idea. And yeah, I'll look at it, but I can probably manage to give the whole a better water mobility on average.

Edit: Although having good average water mobility was supposed to be a pirate advantage, so giving it to the bot too might break it. I think we'll just give better mobility to the tank and create the lv2/3 ships from it...


@oiling attack:
I think it's good to make it have in one special unit lvl2 unit. Since the Flamespitter is too weak, we could give it him. It would be interesting if you make it affect every time it doesn't hit since the oil didn't burn. And since the oil is spilling in a wide area, the enemy will be always been hit. Therefore it would make sense to give magic.[/quote]

You seriously feel like the Flamespitter is underpowered? I must admit I haven't tested the bots a lot, and never managed to level an oiler so far, but I imagined the flamespitter as the faction's best ranged unit. Since it is frailer than the lv2 machinegun, it should pack that much more of a punch. Plus it already has marksman. Maybe I should up it's damage a bit?

Edit: While re-reading a good part of the thread to create a ToDo list, I noticed some edit I had missed where you say this. Sorry

Anyway, back to the "oil" special: giving it on a flamer's miss, although explainable, doesn't feel really KISS and wesnothy. And not that useful, overall... I think I'd still prefer seeing it given to the oil/extract/refine-er. They do pay for their own upkeep, which is a considerabl plus value, but they are frail and mostly lack any offensive capability. Giving them this support option could be useful, and would encourage the player to send those glass units to the front lines, thus putting their gold-generation in jeopardy. I think I'd go for that... Do you think we should replace one of it's attacks (either melee or ranged) or add a new one (most probably ranged)?

Btw, if you hadn't guessed why "oiled" would reduce defenses, it'd be because the unit is made slippery and has a harder time standing and defending.

---

Anyway, on another subject, for those who aren't looking at the Art Workshop, here are the new ninja sprites I have so far

new ninja tree.png (43.61 KiB) Viewed 3438 times

Comments and thoughts welcome on any subject, as usual!

[fog_of_gold]

@bots|swimmer:
What, if we do both? -We could make a tank to make it possible to protect the scavengers and upper the moves in water. I'm not sure, if you are able to protect the scavengers in water since all the tanks are slowly(oiler, tank). That would make it possible to create a fast tank in water being slowly on land and if you wonna do damage in water, you'll need the scavengers and other units. Also, there are less units need to be fast in water. You'd be able to keep tank's movementcosts 3.

Hmmm... Giving the tank better water mobility and making a new boat-bot lv2 and lv3 from it is an interesting idea. And yeah, I'll look at it, but I can probably manage to give the whole a better water mobility on average.

Edit: Although having good average water mobility was supposed to be a pirate advantage, so giving it to the bot too might break it. I think we'll just give better mobility to the tank and create the lv2/3 ships from it...

I think you missunderstood me. I didn't suggest to make THE tank be mobile in water, I suggested to make A tank be mobile in water. In other words: Create a new unit being slow and having bad defences without water but within water, it should be fast with great defences. I imagine a ship fitting in that term. But anyway, the way you understood it would be interesting, too. It would be interesting to make the ship not be able to walk over flat and such. And why should it break an advantage if another faction have it, too? -There are factions having the same advantages, even in mainline. Undeads vs Knagans is a such example. Both have got a flyer for a swimmer. It wouldn't "break" their advantage anyway since the bots aren't fast regardless they move one hex or four hexes in water. By the way, a plane for a swimmer can turn interesting, too.

[...]Anyway, back to the "oil" special: giving it on a flamer's miss, although explainable, doesn't feel really KISS and wesnothy. And not that useful, overall... I think I'd still prefer seeing it given to the oil/extract/refine-er. They do pay for their own upkeep, which is a considerabl plus value, but they are frail and mostly lack any offensive capability. Giving them this support option could be useful, and would encourage the player to send those glass units to the front lines, thus putting their gold-generation in jeopardy. I think I'd go for that... Do you think we should replace one of it's attacks (either melee or ranged) or add a new one (most probably ranged)?

Btw, if you hadn't guessed why "oiled" would reduce defenses, it'd be because the unit is made slippery and has a harder time standing and defending.[...]

It could be an idea. You are right, the more the unit cost, the less useful gets exctract and such. But I'm not sure if you'd make them be in jeopardy since the oil special is more or less an aggressive special and therefore you'd be able/you'd have to protect him more. He'd be more in jeopardy if you make the oiler more defensive he is already so you are likly to use him to defend your positions and since the oiler is already very defensive it wouldn't make sense to the unit be more aggressive. Always make the enemy be affected if missed isn't very wesnothy, yes, but it is simple and silly. "retreat", for example, isn't wesnothy, too, but it is KISS. I still keep my opinion it's good to give oiling the flame spitter.

[lindsay40k]

re tromblons. Excellent idea, this. The English word for this weapon is a Blunderbuss or Musket; the former refers to the particularly flared muzzle design used for firing shrapnel grapeshot.


re Ninja sprites. I like where you're going with them. Some constructive feedback:

Shinobi's arms look a little chunky, legs look a little squat.

Teisatsu's legs would look better in the same pose as the Serf's IMO.

Kusa line's levitating thingies would look excellent if they were moving a little. That would also tie them in with their shadow, which in its present unanimated form looks odd. Also, Kusa and Rappa's legs are a little squat, it makes them look adolescent. Making them stand taller or bending their knees would give them more adult-like proportions.

Koran's feet look a little odd hanging limply like that. Perhaps redraw them in this kind of pose:

Spoiler:

Hanging balls (hurr hurr) on the Iga-Mono and Yohei adds a lot to their silhouette, which makes them look like they have fat legs. Perhaps raise their balls (hurr hurr) closer to their waists? Also, their legs have the same undynamic pose issue as the Teisatsu.


re Tanks evolving into Ships: works OK for me, thematically. The first tanks were developed from the concept of a 'land ship', after all. We're thinking about a semi-amphibious gunboat, then? Only concern is that this is being added as a lv2 to a unit that already has three branches...

re Oil attack. I'm in favour of replacing the lv1 Oiler's attacks with an oil spray, that deals weak ranged impact damage but Oils the target; as it stands now, I generally use the Oiler as a kind of in-between fighter/shooter, this adaptation would definitely reinforce its role as a close support unit. (Give it a melee flame attack to light the oil?) Also, don't forget that I think that Mechanical units that have been Oiled should get a movement boost. To represent the status, I suggest a puddle of black crude around the unit's feet.

I'm not sure about Water tiles removing Oiled status; one of the problems with oil slicks is that this strategy simply does not work, as the Deepwater Horizon spill is reminding us with its effect on sealife. I would prefer to keep swimming units as Oiled, with the 'puddle' being raised to sit on the surface of the water. Imagine a school of Oiled Merfolk whose 'puddles' seemingly merge into one big slick, that would fit in perfectly with the 'pollution nightmare' theme running through several 'bot lines

This said, I would suggest the 'oil' effect could be neutralised by Sand tiles; thematically, dirt is a good way of getting rid of grease (and of smothering fires), plus it's not a surface on which lubricants will affect one's stability. As a bonus, this - and the water suggestion above - will mean that 'bots will find large spaces of desert particularly slow to cross (sand is an absolute swine to unfiltered mechanics and oil just makes it get stuck) whilst benefiting from an oil-based waterproofing if they have cause to cross water (again, thematically sound). To top this off, if the Oiler can be made to automatically Oil friendly Mechanical units at the start of the turn, an idea we previously rejected as cool but non-KISS (Oilers increasing 'bot speed in some way) becomes simple to implement and easily understood.

As a final note, I think we should experiment with a range of possible effects the Oil could have with Fire attacks. Raising weakness is one possibility... but it does mean that the amount of extra damage depends on the power of the attack, which seems odd - if something's covered in oil, any spark should see it engulfed in flame. I would suggest that adding a certain amount to the Fire attack's base damage - eight would make it broadly in line with Poison - would make it feel more like you're lighting the oil (as opposed to adding 10% here or there to the game's calculations), and also add an interesting risk balance for a Robot player faced with Fire-using enemies and wanting to gain extra movement speed. If possible, I'd also suggest raising the accuracy of Fire attacks against an Oiled unit.

re Sprite sizes: since I'm still doing my pixelart on the 12-year old Dinomac with no direct access to Wesnoth at the same time, I just went off the old Cowboy sprites for a rough sense of scale... I'll use the existing bot as a lv 3 bruiser and work down from that, and shrinking the Scavenger will be no problem. As for the colours - I think I mentioned that these are basically 'placeholder' colours, with a wood/brass/iron steampunk palette to be adopted in due course.

[Dixie]

So, hm... I updated the zip on the first post, although it mostly is the same as the last release on the add-on server, save for the new ninja sprites. There are some issues with the two new cowboy sprites, too, I'll get around to fixing it sometime (white background instead of transparent). Btw, thanks for the comments on the sprites, I'll consider them and will probably get to fix some of it sometime. Today is sprite break for me, though, I'm kinda full of it for now (I've been through like 3 or 4 intensive spriting days )

Appart from that, I'm still considering your suggestions, both of you. I'm not sure I am gonna make the whole bot faction better swimmers, although I might give them access to deep water with low mobility/defense and give them submerge. I'm still wondering wether making the tank amphibious and giving it a boat upgrade, making a whole new boat unit, or maybe give more defensive capabilities to the probe (or a new level up branch) is the best option regarding water control... It is true that having four branches for a level is a bit much, though, as lindsay pointed (which would likely eliminate tank and flyer options).

About Oil attacks. I'm still trying to figure which units it fits best. My gut feeling is still to give it to the Oiler, but fog's comment about those unit being defensive kinda leaves me in doubt. It's true that you generally won't go and risk your gold-generating machine on the front, but to label it a defensive unit? I never had thought of it like that. On the contrary, I saw it as slightly agressive-inclined due to fire ranged attack, and bots generally weaker on the ranged side. For me, it was the faction's mage of sorts, a "glass cannon", if you will (although it's damage ain't that high, but I figure it's ok) Also, as for your ideas, lindsay: there is good stuff, but I dunno. The main idea I had for this special was to cap defenses, the fire damage being only a side-effect (although that said, I kinda like your 8-damage idea, compared to a weakness increase). Raising fire attack acy does sound more complicated, and is mostly uneeded is the special was already gonna lower the defenses in the first place. The water not washing it makes sense, desert might too, but maybe only if we get the speed thing... Which would probably be dependant on oiler oiling surrounding units, which, although sound and interesting, is considerably less so when it is gonna hinder your defenses. Although maybe Dazzle would act as a counter, in that case... Also, this leads me to thinking that maybe instead of making it a weapon special, it could be an aura effect of the oiler and level ups, which would give him a support role of some kind, not breaking the defensive nature fog attributes to it. And maybe some other bot could still have it as an attack... But we have to consider the following: fire is already one of the bot's weak spot, so it's already gonna be used against them. Do we really want to widen that weak spot? As far as representation goes, it might someday become a black puddle, but for the time being it is gonna be a blackish hue. Conflicting with Dazzle, though, but... we'll get around to fixing that someday, I suppose. Anyway, both are already conflicting with poison, a special already available to the faction, so we might need to find something else for dazzle too, eventually. Btw, what's your (lindsay) opinion on fog's idea to give oil weapon special the flamespitter's misses?

So, these are my thoughts for today. More needed, I think...