Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

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West
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by West »

Thanks for your comments! As you may have figured out, I'm not really getting anywhere with this piece ATM. I'm thinking of just removing the woodwind intro and finishing the last part, and consider it done.

Also, both Spi and EvilEarl mentioned that it sounds like several parts that don't completely fit together. I would agree with this if we were talking about any other of my Wesnoth tunes, but in this case I beg to differ. Listen carefully. This is probably one of the most thematically coherent pieces I've written for this game. Yes, it moves through a few different moods and pacings, but there is actually a lot of repeating motives. There's little hints and echoes of different themes all over the place, either melodically or rhythmically.

It's not a pop song ya know, so I hope you don't expect me to have repeating verses and choruses ;)
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by West »

Penultimate version. I really have to wrap this tune up now, so next version will be the final. I rewrote the woodwind intro completely, though it still needs a lot of polish (and no, I'm not sure the timpani fits in). The end will have to do but of course it also needs some tweaks.
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by artisticdude »

Sounds great (to my amateur self, anyways)! :D

I will say, however, that I'm not overly fond of the birds singing in the introduction... they seem to noticeably get abruptly cut off almost as soon as the music comes to the foreground.
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by West »

artisticdude wrote:Sounds great (to my amateur self, anyways)! :D
Thanks!
artisticdude wrote:I will say, however, that I'm not overly fond of the birds singing in the introduction... they seem to noticeably get abruptly cut off almost as soon as the music comes to the foreground.
Yeah, that's one of the things that needs some polish. The forest ambience should fade out softly when the wind instruments come in, I just haven't gotten around to fixing it yet. Same as the woodwinds themselves also need a bit of Expression love to make them sound smoother and nicer. All this will be fixed in the final version.
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by PPH »

Very nice. This intro is much better, though I had to listen to it more than once to be convinced that it wasn't out of place like the other one. Now I think that impression is a remnant of other times I listened to the piece; I know it so well after listening to it so many times that changes might sound strange to me. I think I can live with the new intro.

I'm not crazy, in general, for birds and that kind of stuff in intros. Generally, when you listen to the piece more than once, this kind of thing tends to be annoying. But that's just me :D
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by Telaron »

West wrote:The forest ambience should fade out softly when the wind instruments come in, I just haven't gotten around to fixing it yet.
Yeah, I knew I heard some sort of woodwind in there with the birds, but I couldn't place it. (Where did the bird instrument come from?) Never heard one of those used before. :mrgreen:

About the overall piece. Great Job West! I love the melody you use throughout the song. In my opinion, it brings the forest to mind. (Or rather nature in general) Looking forward to hearing this is the actual game. :D
Last edited by Telaron on June 14th, 2010, 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by artisticdude »

Telaron wrote:
artisticdude wrote:The forest ambience should fade out softly when the wind instruments come in, I just haven't gotten around to fixing it yet.
Um, no, actually... West wrote that. :wink:
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West
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by West »

Telaron wrote:Yeah, I knew I heard some sort of woodwind in there with the birds, but I couldn't place it. (Where did the bird instrument come from?) Never heard one of those used before. :mrgreen:
Wait, what? No, I meant the woodwinds as in the melodic instruments. Not sure what you're hearing but those are just a couple of different forest ambiences (from freesound.org) mixed with some wind chimes samples. Now, of course, it *might* be possible that the guy who recorded the birdsong accidentally captured someone out there in the woods with one of them lure whistles... but I wouldn't really know, sounds like birds to me :D
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by Spi »

I'm writing this as I'm listening to it, and wow. Simply: the piece is transformed from the last time I heard it (and indeed especially the intro :D) This is looking really good, although just at around 2:28 the change i ton is a bit jarring as you go from an almost melancholic, sad melody to a much more cheerful, carefree tone...

Other than that truly it's beautiful.

Also, I'm sure I know the name, but I can't seem to remember: what's the name of that precise instrument that sounds softly metallic and is often associated with magic and fireworks or stuff like that in movies? If it's in the free samples format I'd be really interested in using it ^^.

However when I imagine it in-game I don't quite see myself kicking the orcs out of the forest with that music; where would you be using it? Music in story-text is unfortunately cut off very quickly: often there just isn't enough to read to get up to almost four minutes like the length of this piece... which saddens me a lot because we're missing out on a lot here.
Just my humble opinion though.

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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by PPH »

I don't think the changes in mood are jarrying or disturbing. It's perfectly natural to change the mood in a classical piece, as long as it is well done, in a way that doesn't disrupt unity. And I think West has achieved that by using variations.
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by fabi »

I like the "Silvan Sanctuary".

But I don't want it to replace "Elf land".
"Elf land" is in use for many scenario story screens where "Silvian Sanctuary" just isn't applicable.
"Elf land" starts where "Silvan Sanctuary" opens the "main theme" (sorry, my knowledge about music is nearly null)
at 0:50.
That is nearly a minute, most story screens are read in a shorter amount of time.

Can "Elf land" stay like it is but be rerecorded with up to date instrument samples?
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by West »

fabi wrote:Can "Elf land" stay like it is but be rerecorded with up to date instrument samples?
:augh:

In the very first post of this thread, back in November last year, I asked if there would be a problem if I made the piece longer than the original. zookeeper said it would probably work, and that's the assumption I've been working under. Admittedly the piece has changed quite radically since then, but there has also been plenty of time to raise this concern before now.

I have no interest in remaking old tunes with better samples, especially not other people's tunes. You would have to ask Aleksi about that as the original was composed by him. In any case, if this piece is indeed not useable as intended then I see no point in mainlining it or even posting a final version. We have enough rarely used music already and I didn't spend all this time on this piece for it to become a dust gatherer. And neither will I amputate any parts of it to make it shorter. If that's what's needed then just forget about it. We'll keep the old tune.
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by zookeeper »

West wrote:In any case, if this piece is indeed not useable as intended then I see no point in mainlining it or even posting a final version. We have enough rarely used music already and I didn't spend all this time on this piece for it to become a dust gatherer. And neither will I amputate any parts of it to make it shorter. If that's what's needed then just forget about it. We'll keep the old tune.
Umm...it's perfectly useable and at least I'd like to wire it in several places in mainline campaigns. If fendrin or someone else really really really wants to keep elf-land in (which I think would be a poor choice) then I could agree to keeping both but at least I wouldn't need to have to hear elf-land in any campaigns maintained by me anymore. It's a good tune and I don't really find anything to criticize about the latest version.
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by West »

Spi wrote:Also, I'm sure I know the name, but I can't seem to remember: what's the name of that precise instrument that sounds softly metallic and is often associated with magic and fireworks or stuff like that in movies? If it's in the free samples format I'd be really interested in using it ^^.
Not sure what instrument you mean... magic and fireworks... you mean bar chimes? That tinkling, flowing percussion sound?
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West
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Re: Silvan Sanctuary (possible replacement for "Elf land")

Post by West »

zookeeper wrote:Umm...it's perfectly useable and at least I'd like to wire it in several places in mainline campaigns. If fendrin or someone else really really really wants to keep elf-land in (which I think would be a poor choice) then I could agree to keeping both but at least I wouldn't need to have to hear elf-land in any campaigns maintained by me anymore. It's a good tune and I don't really find anything to criticize about the latest version.
Thanks zookeeper, I'm glad to hear that.

On a more general note, I'd like to mention that if you have any major gripes about a piece, don't bring them up at the last minute when it's almost finished. This particular tune has been composed over seven months, I've posted more than a dozen revisions and there has been plenty of time to say "wait a minute, this won't work". I'm actually a little offended that people think it's okay to just stroll in here twice a year to comment on music and expect me and other composers to care about their complaints.

If developers and campaign maintaners spent more time listening to the stuff being worked on in this part of the forum, and commenting on the progress at regular intervals, no one involved would have to worry about the music not working for a particular purpose.
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