drafts for future contributions?

[abousta]

Hello
I love this game and I just discovered that musicians can contribute.
I usually am a singer but I'm interested in improving my skills in composition.
6 years ago I did few shots with orchestral instruments samples and I found two mp3 in my disk that might be Heroic Fantasy oriented...

Can you tell me if the two mp3 below could be a good start in order to achieve longer pieces that would fit with BfW ?

http://ootun.echange.free.fr/data/wesno ... -calme.mp3
http://ootun.echange.free.fr/data/wesnoth/idee.mp3

[CheeseLord]

Hi,
I think that epique-calm is more like what we're looking for, however, here's some comments:

1. As annoying as it seems, you really need better samples - the violin sounds so....synthy. However, you can try free samples - there's some of mine here: http://www.box.net/shared/cr9aj3t53d and see West's Journey's End thread: http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=25423 However, solo violins are notoriously hard to find good soundfonts of, so you may be better off changing the instrument to a flute or something. What samples are you using BTW??

2. This I feel is more ambient, unless it's a short interlude, so there needs to be a more solid structure to it.

But apart from those niggles, I actually like it. You clearly have a decent understanding of harmonies and stuff like, so yeah, carry on composing. I'm sure other people will come along to comment too, so see what they have to say as well.

[abousta]

Thanks for the comment !

I totally forgot what samples I'v used 6 years ago... it was free and I just remember that I had to modify midi velocities note by note with the mouse in order to try to make it as realistic as possible.
But I think eventually that this is impossible, even with the greatest samples. (I think the same for solo saxo and voices...)

So if I restart this piece from scratch for wesnoth (because I've completely lost the original tracks...), I'm planning to do that :
1. Doubling duration by creating a second part with cheap violin samples
2. Asking to a friend of mine to record violin tracks with a real (good) violin in a studio.
If she doesn't have the time to do that for me I would give up and try something else (without solos)

Thank you for the links CheeseLord, I have so many samples to test now with this forum it's really motivating !

For the second shot it's just an idea without any construction/structure.
When I've listen to it this morning I was thinking that it could be exploited in order to do a real sound track but it needs now to take place in a real structure.

[Boucman]

if you manage to record a good solo violin, I'm sure our lords of music would be glad to have them for their free sample collection...

[CheeseLord]

if you manage to record a good solo violin, I'm sure our lords of music would be glad to have them for their free sample collection...

I second that

On the other hand, if you know how to make a good soundfont with velocity layers and everything, I can have a go if your friend can't - I play the violin (albeit badly ). I was going to make a violin soundfont some time ago, but I got confused....

[abousta]

No I don't have the knowledge to create a soundfont with records of violin notes, sorry...
I was planning to record the entire solo in one shot. Can you play something like the violin solo in epique-calme ?
Do you have access to a studio with good microphones?

[CheeseLord]

Hmmm.......well first, I'd need the sheet music, and second, the best I have is the headphone mic, it's not too bad though, look at this for sound quality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEMoEjqVF3g (I played it)

[abousta]

No I can't use a microphone like that. You found it fine because you recorded a piano alone but if you try to mix it with samples in a soundtrack I'm pretty sure you will find a deadend. (did you give a try?)
If I want to mix a solo violin with high or average quality samples I need professional microphones in a studio.
Otherwise we'll always hear the violin like "on the sideline" of the music (I don't know the right term in English but it would be like two tracks played together instead of a mixed single track...)

Moreover it's a shame but I can't write music sorry...

(very good oblivion covering btw )

[West]

Hey abousta, welcome and thanks for sharing your music with us. I usually go on and on about what we're looking for and what Wesnoth music is (and isn't) about, but let me cut to the chase.

"epique-calme" is kind of what we're looking for. "idee" is not what we're looking for

As for the former, I say kind of because personally I find it too slow and brooding. Generally speaking we want more energetic music. Arrangement-wise it's good, it's a fairly basic atmosphere piece and I can't find any glaring problems with it. If anything, it could use a bit more varied instrumentation and a clearer sense of direction (and better samples, but that might be a moot point as this was made several years ago).

Regarding "idee", we don't really want any piano pieces. Especially not piano pieces by someone who can't play the piano. Sorry for being rough, but that's what it sounds like. If you want to contribute, stick to the style of epique-calme, that's much better.

So, I would rather you came up with something entirely new rather than reworking any of the posted pieces. A harp and a violin doesn't really tell us a lot about your compositional skills. Try a larger and more ambitious arrangement, post it here, and we'll see where to go from there.

Regarding using live violin, that would certainly spice things up. But honestly I think you should put some more work into the piece before aksing your friend to play on it.

Also, if you know a violinist with access to a studio, creating a sampled violin of decent quality is no huge amount of work as long as there is someone around who knows how to set up mics and get the best possible sound. In fact, I think it would be time better invested to sample the notes of the violin and create a virtual instrument, rather than just having her play on a single tune.

[Lyrax]

"epique" would be really good for a pure, dungeon-delving RPG. Dark, mysterious things lurk around every dark, mysterious corner.

"idee" is just a musical idea, although from the title you gave it I suspect you know this already. If you took that theme, broke it up between first and second violins, added some trumpets and horns, and gave it a large structure with lots more development, that could go somewhere.

Wesnoth could definitely use more music, so I'm glad to see people coming up with new things to contribute on that front.

[abousta]

Thank you very much for all your comments! In conclusion, that old archives could be a start for future contributions with a lot of work.
I think I can see the direction of compositions here so I'll try to propose something when I will finish to set up my samples environment. (and that's a very long work...)

@West, for the piano it's not a pb as well, I can ask to another friend that is a very good pianist to record it
I've never played piano, it was juste ideas in midi with the mouse. (I don't want to use piano for wesnoth it doesn't fit so well with...)
I'm used to do drafts like that and ask real (and kind) musicians to record on it.

About recording a violin note by note and make a sf2, it's like reinventing the wheel don't you think?
Would it be really better than a free sf2 violin?
For this solo, even if I have very high quality samples it would not sound realistic I think. I'm curious to see how a real musician would play that with his own feeling.
The sequence of notes may not be natural for a violinist when it's scored in midi with the mouse, whereas a real musician would change notes, add and remove some, and vary intensities with a more natural way.

I think I'll try to do a more energic piece with much more instruments and more construction. The West pieces is a good reference that give good directions.
I've never been aware before of an open source game that let musicians contribute. It's a great idea and I think it's going to be a good experience for me.
(thank you again for your comments)

[abousta]

I'm lucky !
The violonist can take some time in a month to record this solo in a studio

I thought again about all that and I think I'm going to make two versions of this piece:
- the achievement of this one, slow and quiet like this draft, with a real recorded violin (I don't really know if it will fit with this game but we'll see)
- and a higher tempo piece with more instruments and orchestrations + structure (three different parts) but without solo at all (and no recorded violin but I'll try to find good free samples)

I think the second one is going to be more consistent with wesnoth as it would follow your suggestions.

[abousta]

Hello

So here is an evolution of my very first draft.
In order to improve the sounds of my samples I bought a plugin that is not too expensive (but with a very fair quality in my opinion) called Miroslav Philarmonik. I know there are better sounds like Vienna Orchestra and so on but I think it's for professionals...

A violonist played on the first part in order to replace my violin midi solo that sounded too "synthy" (even with miroslav plugin)

Then I followed your suggestions and I added a second part with a higher tempo and much more orchestration.

http://ootun.echange.free.fr/data/wesno ... ion-01.mp3

I'm looking forward for your feedback

Thanks

[West]

Well, the tune clips like crazy in places and you should use a lot more reverb, but those are minor problems.

That live violin is really tasty, it sounds great. When you work a lot with sampled instruments it's easy to forget how much life a real instrument can breathe into a piece. I've heard some great virtual orchestrations over the years, but there's no denying it, real musicians playing real instruments will not become obsolete anytime soon, if ever. Things can be faked to a high degree these days, but to make something sound human, the best thing is always having a human play it.

The harp, unfortunately, stands in stark contrast to the lovely violin. Several times I found myself thinking "WTH is the harpist doing?", which I guess is not the feeling you were trying to convey. The harp part has a hesitant and stuttering demeanor that makes me think of beginners, before they have developed proper finger dexterity and timing and keeps getting their fingers stuck in the instrument. The notes being played are also somewhat awkward-sounding.

Keep in mind that unlike a piano, harps are not chromatic. Playing accidentals is done by using foot pedals which increse or decrase the tension on certain strings, thus altering the scale of the entire instrument. Which means that some of the modal gliss-type ornaments you're using would likely not be possible to play on a real harp. Yes, there are chromatic harps but firstly I'm not sure if these are very common in orchestral music, and secondly the diatonic tuning is IMO part of the harp's distinctive sound. Harps doing chromatic things might sound odd, plain and simple.

There's two important rules of thumb for writing parts for instruments you don't really know how they're played.

1) Do some research. Listen to recordings of the instrument in question, read up on range and playing styles and conventions etc. Watching videos of the instrument being played is usually a good idea, as it helps you visualize what's going on when you write the parts.

2) Don't overdo it. Keep it simple and tasteful, because doing complex things with sampled instruments is something that should always be approached with caution. Constantly ask yourself, is this something (in this case) a harpist can and would play? And if so, can I make it sound convincing using samples?

All in all, the intro is kind of hit and miss, but it does build up a certain dark, ominous atmosphere. That atmosphere is completely ruined by the following up-tempo part, I'm sad to say. What begins at ~2:00 isn't really a piece of orchestral music, it's basically a pop song using sampled orchestral instruments. Sorry, but I can't think of any better way of explaning what's wrong with it. The arrangement is very linear and repetitive, there's no use of dynamics (all instruments seem stuck in mf), and the percussion is used to create a steady, throughout beat rather than accenting certain passages.

Furthermore, I can't make any sense of the instrument sections and playing styles used. I hear what I think is detache celli being layered with pizz celli AND legato celli... sure, playing divisi is one thing, but splitting a section up into several that plays completely different things will inevitably result in a mess. It sounds like you've just picked some string samples at random and clumped them together in a haphazard accompaniment.

Speaking of strings, where's the violins? Aside from some flutes towards the end, all I hear is instruments with the same range (celli and horns) playing a lot of busy parts at the same time, in the same register, masking each other and creating big honking wall of conflicting frequencies. Let the piece breathe, dude! An orchestra has an immense range, from the lowest tuba fart to the highest piccolo shriek we're talking... I don't know how many octaves. Lots. You're using maybe two octaves of it, if that. Always make space for the important parts, not only by making less important parts play softer, but also by using different ranges.

I'm not usually one who preaches the virtues of ultra-realism when it comes to virtual orchestrations, but still, a virtual arrangement needs *some* semblance of realism to be convincing. At the very least you need to be clear on what instruments and sections form the building blocks of an orchestra, how they're placed, and how they're normally used. The two latter points can be and is often deviated from, but it's not something you should attempt until you have a very clear idea of why you want to do it. IOW, stick to the traditional and conventional ways of doing things until you have a solid grasp of how an orchestra works. As long as you lack that understanding, your music will never truly sound like orchestral music, no matter what instruments you use and how intricate parts you write.

I always feel bad when I have to give a lot of largely negative criticism, because I realize that you have put a lot of hard work and creativity into your music. But keep in mind that I'm not saying all this to be a dick, it's just that I'm hearing things you aren't hearing, and I'm trying to make you aware of the problems so you can improve. It's great that you have bought Philharmonik -- the Miroslav library is a good and time-proven set of samples and an excellent starting point. Now you need to start working on making the most of it.

[abousta]

Hello

You're right about the fact that I don't hear what you hear and it's hard for me to figure all this out.
The thing is, as you've guessed, I simply don't listen to this kind of music usually.
I'm a very beginner in orchestration and I've never studied music at all.
When you hear an harpist playing, I just hear sounds that I found nicer than others. (I think I've never seen a real harp in my life)
To summarize your post, you're advicing me to get first a real knowledge of music before composing something.
It is a very wise idea of course I can't deny !
It can take years by the way but it's really exciting for me.

Your critics are very good and it doesn't make me regret at all the work that I've done. Actually I like this piece ! (the beginning, not the second part to be honest).
If it doesn't fit with this game it doesn't bother me. I spent a very good time in arranging all of this instruments in my computer.

Thank you very much for sharing your experience like this. I don't know any composer that could show me the right ways so I really apreciate the time you spent for writing your comment.

So what's next? I think I can't improve this piece now because it's a dead-end. It's better to create an other one from scratch
But if I don't spend some time to understand the way instruments are used and get basic knowledge about what is "chromatic" or "diatonic" for example, it's going to be as un-realistic as this one and I won't be able to hear it.

So I think I'm going first to reproduce a dozen of existing pieces in my computer before composing something that would come from me.
This exercice would force me to listen and understand the way instruments are used in good pieces.
Can you give me examples of pieces that would be in a way "educative"?

Thank you again West !