Era of the Future/Welkin faction Feedback/Balancing

[wesfreak]

you can still help with the descriptions, they're just in a different thread now(era of the future development). and you can playtest the dev. version that's listed on the development thread.

[Huston]

i was just playing the welkin and they actually seem weaker than mainline units to me. i was playing them ina SX game and i had to power my level 2 welkin as much as i had to power up mainline level 1 units what should we do about this?

most of the level 2 welkin also have xp requirements equaling that of level 3 mainline elves.

[Xandria]

Well, just look at how the mainline factions were balanced, tossing a hitpoint or damage point back and forth.
The xp adjustments should be such that you actually can level up an unit in a classic 1v1 70% xp match. Most units have to kill 2-3 foes there if intelligent, 3-4 if not. Most often, units which find it easy to land final blows (mages, horsemen) will have a higher xp requirement.

Horsemen, that brings me to another point about the Welkin - they lack a big hitter, like a wose, or heavy infantry, and two of their fighting units (the guardians) are slow with speed 4, which makes it more difficult to concentrate fire.

The fire mage is their sole strong offensive unit.

A thought: let the Guardian of Day have dauntless (trait from the Windsong) so that he finds it easier to mount an assault, and let the Luna protector have counter (from the same faction) to retaliate slightly better.
Improving their speed may be worth considering, too - as they stand, they are too slow to cover mages afte they blast away some foe (perhaps the speed of one of them?). Also, taking 49 xp to level might be slightly too much (40 may be more appropriate).

Another thought: the faction's units are >all< expensive. They need to be better than their conterparts, because they will be facing a more numerous opposition, have no cheap village sitters&grabbers, etc. Many people who yell 'overpowered' consider units on a one-by-one basis. One has to consider their faction as a whole. The question is then: can the Welkin mount an offensive, gain some advantage, and lose less when their power phase is over? (As they are, they are likely to fall prey to an aggressive village grab, not being able to dislodge the foe from a village without losing the ones they had in the process).

[Pentarctagon]

the reason that the welkin are more expensive is that most of them have better dodge than their mainline counterparts (the flyer, flurry, star shooter, and moonlight glider have 50% on flat. the luna protector and GoD also have +10% (some times more) than the mainline faction's armored units on most terrain). as a faction, they also have all 6 attack types, which makes them rather versatile overall. they also have a heals +8/cures unit for 16 gold (the sage), which none of mainline units have at all.

i agree that the flurry could stand to have it's cost reduced.
However, the luna protector's lvl 2 form gets the steadfast ability, and counter+steadfast is a bit much imo.

also, i don't think any of the units take 49xp to lvl up .

[Xandria]

Well, was just my $ 0.02 worth
Will have to play a bit with the Welkin to get a clearer image of them.

[wesfreak]

maybe we could make the g.o.d. a 2 hit tank, doing 11 or 12-2? for some variety and so that they get a heavy hitter.

also, i'm doing a playtest now and all 3 of my neophytes have strong. i thought they couldn't get it as a trait. what gives?

also, neophytes have 5 mp, pyrotations have 4, high pyrotations and their lvl ups have 4 and solar empreans get 6. why?

[Pentarctagon]

having a heavy hitter seems a bit out of character for the welkin, who emphasize multiple strikes and good evasion.

the neophytes have strong because the code that would keep them from getting strong is not in the current version for some reason. also, the higher lvled forms of the neophyte have less mp because we while we agreed to give the neophyte 5 mp instead of 4, we forgot about the lvl2+ forms .

[wesfreak]

I'm back (thanks to march break) and since I can't be of much use in actual development because the developing version doesn't work for me, i've decided to make some balancing contributions to the welkin and brungar, which, while much better than before, still need some help. (arranged in spoilers because of length, for the longer ones). All of this is from the version on the add-on server, but I don't think it's been updated yet.

Sage line:

the elder sage costs 54 gold, in comparison to the white mage, which costs 40 gold. I suggest lowering it to 40. It's ranged attack is also weaker in comparison, (6-3 sage and 9-3 white mage). I suggest moving the damage up to 7-3 (it's lower than the white mage because it has 2 more hp, needs about 30 less xp to level and has a better movetype. Melee damage could probably also be a bit higher to do more retaliation damage (it has 3-2, the white mage does 6-2. I suggest moving it up to at least 5-2)

The doyen is fine damage wise, but has 11 more hp than the mage of light and costs 25 more gold (it costs 89, the mage of light costs 64. I suggest making it cost 65) It's hp should probably go down from 58 (M.o.L has 47) to around 50. It's melee damage should go up from 4-2 to 7-2, continue with the damage change of the previous level (this is compared to M.o.L 7-3 melee)

Patriach costs 104 gold, should probably go down to 78 (great mage costs 72. I made it more because of healing.) Melee should go up to 9-2, also the same as the great mage.

The battle sage could do a bit more ranged damage. I suggest increasing to 5-3. It's cost should probably also go down to 40. The battle seer loses heals+4 when it levels up. I don't know whether or not this is intentional, but reduction in power when leveling is bad. It's melee damage is a bit too high: i suggest moving it down to 9-4, so it's weaker than most fighter or archer lvl 3's This is because a part healer mixed unit shouldn't be as strong as a fighter. Cost should go down to 65 from 86, so it costs the same as a doyen.

flurry line:

The flurrie's hp should go up (it has 26, while both the wolf rider and elf scout have 32) I suggest 32 if you want it to be like a normal scout and 28-30 if you would rather it be a bit more fragile.
The whirlwind is stronger than the talon whirler. They do the same amount of melee damage and the whirlwind has 1 more ranged strike. All the talon whirler has to his advantage is 3 hp. My suggestion is to make it so that the whirlwind keeps it's current ranged (6-4) and does 6-3 melee. This way it's stronger and weaker damages match the stronger and weaker elf rider damages. It's hp can stay the same, as it's only 2 more than that of the elvish rider. The Talon warrior's damage can go up to 8-3 (also 24 damage, like the melee of the dragoon and only 3 more damage than the elf rider melee) while it's ranged stays the same. This way both of them do 24 total for their stronger range and 18 damage for their weaker ranged. The elf rider, by comparison, does 21 on it's stronger range and 18 on it's weaker range. They do more damage because the elf rider is 2 mp faster.
The tornado costs too much, has too much hp and does too much damage. I'm suggest matching it to the elf outrider: Lower it's hp from 66 to 60 (only 3 higher than elf outrider), it's melee damage to 8-3 from 7-4 so it matches the outrider ranged and it's ranged from 8-5 to 8-4 so it does 32 damage, 4 more than the outrider's melee.
The talon hero is fine, as it already does 8-4 in it's stronger range and 8-3 in it's weaker one. The only thing that can change for it is price, from 61 to 52 like the cavalier.

The high pyrotation has 78 hp, while the Hiearch of Aten has 60. I suggest 54 to match the arch mage damage. The cost of the lvl 3's should be changed to 59 like the arch mage for lvl 3's (from 79 for the high pyrotation and 81 for the solar emporean) and to 72 from 102 for the higharch of Aten to match the cost of the great mage.

star shooter line:

The quickdraw's damage is a bit low. My suggestion is to change the bow damage from 7-4 to 8-4, so it does the same damage as most lvl 2 archers. It's hp is a bit weird, too: more than elf archers but less than human archers. ( elf ranger: 42, elf avenger 55, quickdraw 49, deadeye 66, longbowman 51, master bowman 67). Thoughts on whether or not to change?
The shadow raider has 39 hp, less than the red mage (which has 42). It's lvl up, the astral ranger, has 71 hp, 17 more than the arch mage (which has 54 hp). This should probably be changed to 40 hp for the lvl 2 and 53 for the lvl 3.. It also does 6-5 melee damage, quite alot for a mage. I suggest 6-3, so it only does 4 more damage than the archmage melee.

P.S: sorry for being a thread necro, but this is where the post should go, as it's not actually development.

[Mirion147]

The battle sage could do a bit more ranged damage. I suggest increasing to 5-3. It's cost should probably also go down to 40. The battle seer loses heals+4 when it levels up. I don't know whether or not this is intentional, but reduction in power when leveling is bad. It's melee damage is a bit too high: i suggest moving it down to 9-4, so it's weaker than most fighter or archer lvl 3's This is because a part healer mixed unit shouldn't be as strong as a fighter. Cost should go down to 65 from 86, so it costs the same as a doyen.

Please note that it's called "battle sage" for a reason. It ceases to be a healing unit and becomes a fighter unit.

The elf sorceress doesn't have heal +4 but the shaman does, so losing heal +4 isn't so bad. And if I remember correctly I think it still retains it's curing ability.

How can you say that it's reducing in power when it's melee attack is too high..?

It also does 6-5 melee damage, quite alot for a mage. I suggest 6-3, so it only does 4 more damage than the archmage melee.

Also it's using a Ice hammer, so it shouldn't do the same damage as an old mage with a staff. So it should be maybe not 6-5 but maybe 7-4 or 6-4.

And the Quickdraw should be better then any other level 2 archer in everything except melee since he has no melee attack.

I'm ok with everything else you mentioned. And glad to have you back .

[wesfreak]

Glad to be back. I was unsure about the entire battle sage line anyways, as there isn't any unit similar to it to compare to. The way it is now it's a fighter with cures. Now that I look at the elvish hero in comparison to it though, it seems o.k. as it is. (does less damage in both melee and ranged)

True that it's not using a staff, but i'm concerned more about overpowering then realism. Since it's damage is less than the arch mage though, i think 6-4 will be o.k.

[Pentarctagon]

wow, been a while since anybody posted here lol.
@wesfreak: you could always just open the cfg files themselves and look at the stats there...

[wesfreak]

I have. in theory and as individual units they are balanced. If I want to do anything else I have to test them in-game (like on a map with a corner that has snow for the snow defense idea, and in general to see if low price weak units work as a strategy (if they aren't weak enough then you have a huge army, if they are too weak then the enemy levels up alot). And again, there aren't any balanced units to compare these to. The closest thing is develings, and those are underpowered in EOM and overpowered in ageless, so that's not much of a help. I'll be able to do more balancing tests when they come out on the add on server, and will hopefully get this problem fixed for the next faction (or I'll just continue only using the cfg files for individual unit balancing).

EDIT: In the add on version and in the most recent development version the brungar don't have the changes that i suggested on p. 49 of the development thread and that Pentarctagon changed a bit on p. 55 of the development thread. In other words, the crabs still do pierce and weak damage and so on. Also: the turtle is better on land and in forest than the brungar are, and still has the -800 arcane resist. The turtle has 40% def and needs 1 mp to cross flat and has 30% and needs 2 mp to cross forest, while the brungar have 30% and need 1 mp on flat and 30% and need 3 mp on forest. The turtle should probably have at most 30% on flat and brungar should take 2 mp to cross forest, or else they might be too slow in general and on forested maps.

Also, ageless era stats override the era of the future stats again.

And the crab has 30% def on sand mountains, even though it's supposed to use the better defense and the worse movement IIRC.