Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

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Turuk
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Turuk » July 9th, 2009, 3:38 am

Syntax_Error wrote:
Turuk wrote:The alphabet was chosen because the sign can say whatever it wants and still be applicable in all settings, as the player will see a nearly dead language and not even think to attempt to translate it.
It would allow for some nice easter eggs with the text if latin alphabet was used in some obscure language & with some non-modern font instead; i dont see what would be bad about it.
Sure, did you have any particular font you are fond of that you think would work well?
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Blarumyrran » July 9th, 2009, 3:50 am

With us drifting off, I feel a bit bad about spamming in melinath's topic, but:
Turuk wrote:Sure, did you have any particular font you are fond of that you think would work well?
If you meant like, font that is out there as a computer-usable font with a free license, then no, but i could search a bit if theres a need (most free online pseudomedieval fonts are some particularly boring blackscripts tho); but if you meant like, any font that would be drawn somewhere (as in most images it would probably have to be hand-drawn anyway), then yes:
I wrote:this is one of my favorites).

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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Turuk » July 9th, 2009, 3:57 am

I was thinking if you knew of any computer-usable font just to have for future use, but if there's nothing good out there without some digging, no worries. As you said, it would be drawn on for the sign portrait anyways, so he can use your picture references.

With that, I will stop drifting and wait for his input.
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by melinath » July 9th, 2009, 7:59 am

I'll think about the alphabets some more. I do kind of like easter eggs, but I also like incomprehensibility. Here's a question that has a lot of bearing on what I would choose: how should the signpost be made? Would it be engraved in the wood or would it be painted? Also, Turuk, do you know anything about medieval signposts? The literacy rate was not high... but Wikipedia claims that signposts existed. So what did they put on them? (EDIT:: I'm checking a book out of the library just in case you don't know.)

In the meantime, here's the signpost with the lighting suggestion that SytaxError made and additional versions pointing sw.

EDIT EDIT:: Some thoughts garnered from the book:
Unfortunately, there was only one book in the library about the history of signposts, and it focuses on Germany. However, the information is fairly useful. Of course road systems were pretty terrible in the middle ages, but apparently there also weren't really any signposts until ~1800. The Prussians had ordered the placement of signposts around 1700, but the people who actually lived in towns and villages all knew their way around + didn't need them - even thought of them as something dangerous since they showed soldiers and robbers exactly how to get to the village. Another problem, of course, was maintenance. A stone waymarker might get overgrown with time, a post might fall down and need to be replaced, or the signs might point in the wrong direction. It looks like signposts were always made with letters engraved in them, though that's not stated explicitly. I'm deducing it from pictures and the fact that engraved letters would require less maintenance.

How does this apply to Wesnoth? Well, Wesnoth Is Not Medieval Europe, just very similar. An amalgamation. The signposts are useful. They add flavor to the game. It's less awkward than having a local guide. However, it would add even more flavor to have different levels of street maintenance depending on the chaos/order that is present in the kingdom. For signposts with words on them to be at all useful, there would have to be a general level of at least basic literacy - i.e. being able to sound out the word from the letters.
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by melinath » July 9th, 2009, 12:28 pm

And thus, here's a broken signpost:
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Turuk » July 9th, 2009, 12:29 pm

melinath wrote:Also, Turuk, do you know anything about medieval signposts? The literacy rate was not high... but Wikipedia claims that signposts existed. So what did they put on them? (EDIT:: I'm checking a book out of the library just in case you don't know.)
You touched on it a bit yourself. Signposts were used and they were usually carved into wood or engraved into stone to allow for more permanence, so that that they would not have to be repainted or replaced. They were used, more towards the latter part of the Medieval period, both as literacy was rising and as there was a greater focus on providing a more usable road system (ha!). Generally though, as you stated, the locals not being able to read was not an issue as they knew their area pretty well and never had much of a reason to leave. For those who would be traveling long distances, they were usually only the people who had the money to do so, and thus often had the education/ability to read. For such things as coaches, the driver might not know how to read, but he would know what the town names looked like so that he could read the sign posts.
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Blarumyrran » July 9th, 2009, 10:05 pm

melinath wrote:I'll think about the alphabets some more. I do kind of like easter eggs, but I also like incomprehensibility
Latin alphabet can also have borderline comprehensibility - eg i experimented with this font, here: Image
Here's a question that has a lot of bearing on what I would choose: how should the signpost be made? Would it be engraved in the wood or would it be painted?
Im not sure how could that influence the looks of the sign? I mean, the writing can be only some 3 pixels high anyway?

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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Turuk » July 10th, 2009, 12:17 am

Syntax_Error wrote:Im not sure how could that influence the looks of the sign? I mean, the writing can be only some 3 pixels high anyway?
Rrenys, he wants to do a portrait for the sign so it can be used in campaigns, so when the character "reads" the sign, there is a image next to the text.

That is why I was asking you so much about font, as that detail would be lost on a sprite sign too. ;)
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Jetrel » July 10th, 2009, 2:13 am

Turuk wrote:
Syntax_Error wrote:Im not sure how could that influence the looks of the sign? I mean, the writing can be only some 3 pixels high anyway?
Rrenys, he wants to do a portrait for the sign so it can be used in campaigns, so when the character "reads" the sign, there is a image next to the text.

That is why I was asking you so much about font, as that detail would be lost on a sprite sign too. ;)
Yeah, I was really confused, too. That makes sense, though.
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Turuk » July 10th, 2009, 2:20 am

Jetryl wrote:Yeah, I was really confused, too. That makes sense, though.
Ah, yeah, it was at the bottom of one his sprite posts.
melinath wrote:I was planning on making a portrait for it, if that's all right. Sign posts are used fairly often, and the player always gets presented either with the tiny icon or with the default Wesnoth symbol (crossed swords + shield).
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by melinath » July 10th, 2009, 2:50 pm

Turuk wrote:
melinath wrote:However, this is not a canon position. Could it be one? Or alternatively, I could use a different, related script (I'd search for it, but don't have the time right now) that could be a writing script, if it should be separated.
After discussions with a friend from space, cuneiform will probably remain as the script used for magical script, but as to another script, what about Glagolitic?
I've considered a number of scripts, but it just doesn't feel right... according to TRoW, the non-Wesfolk were living in grass huts before the Wesfolk came along (though this might have been a bit of an exaggeration.) In any case, the non-Wesfolk learned how to use magic from the Wesfolk. Hence the human magic script should be identical with the Wesfolk magic script. The non-Wesfolk would have also learned reading and writing in general from the Wesfolk. This is where I can't make a clear statement; there's not any particular reason that the Wesfolk would separate their magic and non-magic scripts. Clarification: I don't think there's any reason that they would use two completely unrelated scripts; however, the magic script could very well be an older form. Perhaps the Wesnothian script could be an Ugaritic variant/derivative?
Here's an example of what I mean: (EDIT: This is a simplified variant of Ugaritic, not random symbols!)
proposed_wesnoth_script.jpg
As to the signpost itself: Sorry! Didn't mean to cause confusion. Here's a sketch for the gray signpost.
signpost_portrait_sketch.png
It needs some cleaning up. It is supposed to be leaning slightly to the right. Nice thing is: this could be used for all the gray signposts that only point in one direction!
Last edited by melinath on July 10th, 2009, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Turuk » July 10th, 2009, 2:53 pm

melinath wrote:I've considered a number of scripts, but it just doesn't feel right... according to TRoW, the non-Wesfolk were living in grass huts before the Wesfolk came along (though this might have been a bit of an exaggeration.) In any case, the non-Wesfolk learned how to use magic from the Wesfolk. Hence the human magic script should be identical with the Wesfolk magic script. The non-Wesfolk would have also learned reading and writing in general from the Wesfolk. This is where I can't make a clear statement; there's not any particular reason that the Wesfolk would separate their magic and non-magic scripts. Clarification: I don't think there's any reason that they would use two completely unrelated scripts; however, the magic script could very well be an older form. Perhaps the Wesnothian script could be an Ugaritic variant/derivative?
Here's an example of what I mean:
Sure, I could see the reasoning behind that if that is the way you wanted to take it. However, the magic script might have been overly complex (per the symbols currently used) and it would not be surprising if they were to adopt a non-magic script that was simpler.

Have you given any thought/looked at what Syn_Err was talking about? You can choose some more ornate fonts to give it a less simplistic feel while still making it appear as words.
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by melinath » July 10th, 2009, 2:57 pm

Turuk wrote:it would not be surprising if they were to adopt a non-magic script that was simpler.
That's what I was trying to get at with the variation I posted. :P

I did look at Synerr's suggestions, but they were too ornate for a signpost, and I feel that if I took away the ornateness it wouldn't look as cool and would perhaps be too recognizable.

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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Deusite » July 10th, 2009, 4:06 pm

Turuk wrote:However, the magic script might have been overly complex (per the symbols currently used) and it would not be surprising if they were to adopt a non-magic script that was simpler.
'Magic' scripts are generally much more formal and ceremonial i.e. not for mere mortals so it's natural to adopt a simplified version for general use, especially if the script is very old and as a result possibly very complicated. The general gist I'm getting is that the first script was magical, so using that same script to create one for the commoners at large makes sense to me.

See hieroglyphics vs hieratic then later on demotic and even later still coptic :eng:
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by thespaceinvader » July 10th, 2009, 4:39 pm

The actual board needs a bit of thickness, but otherwise, the signpost portrait looks cool.
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