The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

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Sgt. Groovy
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The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Sgt. Groovy » March 15th, 2009, 8:24 pm

Jetryl has assigned me to make a vectored version of the Wesnoth logo (the shield and sword). The logo is going to be pretty much the same, but Jetryl said I can think of something new for the sigil in the shield. I'm aiming something that could be used as the "Fleur-de-lis" of Wesnoth, an universal symbol of the monarchy that could be used as a generic motif in architecture and ornaments.

The obvious starting point is the Ruby of Fire, and the sceptre it's a part of. The design on the left below contains the whole sceptre with flames emanating from the ruby. The ruby is fashioned in a way that it can aslo be seen as an eye. I thought that it would be like the Eye of Providence, symbolising the omnipresence of the monarchy and the divine right of the sovereign. The flames would symbolise the power of monarchy of to provide for its subjects (in the form of warmth and light) and to bring destruction to its enemies. The hook in the other end of the spectre could symbolise the role of the monarch as the shepherd of his/her subjects.

In the other design, the sceptre is left out, and the circle of fire around the ruby is made to resemble the sun.

There could of course be many other stylistic renderings of the symbols, the image below is supposed to illustrate their most essential elements.

The right version is simpler, more esthetically pleasing and the "eye in the sun" motif should be easy to implement in different contexts. The benefit of the version with the sceptre is that it ties the sigil better to the Wesnoth world and helps to avoid associations with Christian/Masonic symbolism where the "all seeing eye" is already used.

One obvious problem with the "eye" symbolism is its association to the red eye of Sauron (and it's really unfortunate that it wasn't a Topaz or Sapphire of Fire :P ). To avoid this, when the eye is represented as more realistic than in my images, it should be obviously human eye, and not red itself but enclosed within a red diamond shape. Also, the golden flame/sun element should always be present, to create a clear association with light and brightness.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Boucman » March 15th, 2009, 8:41 pm

could you try mixing both ? the left specter on the right sun

your fire is a bit too "starfish" to me and five regular branches are usually recognised as a star more than fire

a more "stylistic fire" like this could do the trick too

what we parse as symbolic is a shape that is round under with feather like stuff on the top

hope this helps
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by thespaceinvader » March 15th, 2009, 8:43 pm

The sceptre of fire has been used already - see LordBob's Royal Guard portrait.

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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by shadowm » March 15th, 2009, 8:53 pm

It's been in the logo of the titlescreen all the time, just difficult to notice.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by vonHalenbach » March 15th, 2009, 8:55 pm

Hm. I don't want to seem rude, since you obviously have put some thought and work into the design of those two symbolic icons, but i think you are totally on the wrong way. I don't like them, because they remind me of symbols of churches or dictatory lands. Like you already said, the eye of sauron and such things.

For inspiration, i can only think of grey walls, the isle of wesnoth, a shield, a sword, maybe some pieces of gold?

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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Sgt. Groovy » March 15th, 2009, 9:02 pm

LordBob's version is good, but what I'm after is a more formalistic representation. It shouldn't create too much contradiction, as common symbols often have several stylistic versions in different times, places and contexts (I can sure use that version too, if it becomes the common consensus).

I'm not very happy with the star version either, but on the other hand I'm not terribly concerned abaut whether the flames really look like "flames" all that much, because it's common that when symbols go through iterations of visual representations, they lose resemblance to the physical things they originally derive from.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Sgt. Groovy » March 15th, 2009, 9:05 pm

Yeah, that's exactly the logo I'm supposed to redo in vector, and Jetryl said I can redesign the sigil in the centre, if I like, because he doesn't particulary care for the current one.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by krotop » March 15th, 2009, 9:25 pm

I'm not very happy with the star version either, but on the other hand I'm not terribly concerned abaut whether the flames really look like "flames" all that much, because it's common that when symbols go through iterations of visual representations, they lose resemblance to the physical things they originally derive from.
It could be a problem, however, that the star symbol overweight completly the flame symbol if your 1st intention is to represent flames.

In the case that you keep the star design, for the recall one thing to take into account is the number of arms (or points ?). This number is generally supposed to have a signification too.

Otherwise, I liked most ideas and more particularly found the eye idea quite smart and the image efficiently striking. I found the eye of Sauron obvious on the right one, not on the left one.

Just my 2 cents, as usual for my rare comments on art topics, cheers.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Blarumyrran » March 15th, 2009, 9:26 pm

Imo too those are ugly. The one on the left has flames stylized to the point of looking like a sea creature - less heavy rays like those on the wesnoth icon shield shown by S_M would probably work out better; and the one on the right doesnt really look like anything other than a round blot of colored inks at first glance. And perhaps most importantly, all those straight lines and white edges (and maybe having 2 colors per tone separated by such symmetrical straight edges too?) make them look like modern company/organization logos instead of what one would expect from a world like that of wesnoth.

& for me Wesnoth doesnt associate with an eye at all - they dont believe in an all-seeing entity nor have any very all-seeing magi, they arent very totalitarian so as to have the eye remind its citizens that the king/lawenforcement sees their misdeeds, they probably dont have any very significant eyes in their history - but that could be just a personal tilt.

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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by thespaceinvader » March 15th, 2009, 9:32 pm

I'd agree with that - it's the ruby and the sceptre that are the symbols of their royalty. There's noever been any mention of eyes in any of the wesnothian fluff.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Jetrel » March 15th, 2009, 9:33 pm

I'm not too happy with my rendition, but LordBob's does look fairly nice. I'd forgotten about his; you can keep trying to roll your own (although I'd suggest, for example, shooting for a 'less obviously vector art' shape to it, and also avoiding that shading effect you threw on there). Also try to avoid the barrage of really straight lines and such.

Ultimately, to give it the 'feel' of paint, we want it to not have the "creation artifacts" of being computer vector art; we want to deliberately fake the "creation artifacts" of paint.

For an example, if we were pretending this had been stenciled, we'd not have any "topographically isolated" islands inside a shape. That's something you couldn't do with a stencil. I'm using stencils as an easy example but actually, the "stenciled" look might not hurt for this.
Sgt. Groovy wrote:LordBob's version is good, but what I'm after is a more formalistic representation. It shouldn't create too much contradiction, as common symbols often have several stylistic versions in different times, places and contexts (I can sure use that version too, if it becomes the common consensus).
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Sgt. Groovy » March 15th, 2009, 9:59 pm

So far I have been only trying out basic shapes, and the one I need is going to be embossed, so it should be fairly simple (LordBob's design is probably as complex as it should be). Coats-of-arms often used flat shaded shapes (though by no means exclusively). Neverthless, I should study them more to get a better grip on "heraldic style."

As for the "eye" thing, I only wanted to find some deeper meaning to the ruby than just a rock that shoots fire, and I happened to come up with a simple shape that resembles bot a cut gemstone and an eye, and decided to experiment with that. Basically, I think it would be a good idea to get some essentials of the loyalist iconography nailed down, so that when artist want to use it, they can do it consistently.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by thespaceinvader » March 15th, 2009, 10:06 pm

I don't see why it needs deeper meaning. It's a generic symbol of rulership in the same way as the british crown and sceptre are. The sceptre itself is the symbol of the ruling monarch, nothing deeper than that.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Sgt. Groovy » March 15th, 2009, 10:18 pm

Just to make things more interesting. I'm a sucker for detailed world-building. :)
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by LordBob » March 15th, 2009, 11:33 pm

I've got to admit I'm not fond of either model yet. The sceptre could be more sceptre-like, with an elongated shape (the thickness of yours tends to deny its sceptreness on first look).
I'm also not convinced by the starfish flames. Maybe cutting a crescent of flames into the second model would work better.

Anyway, I'm all for a little research on iconography since I'll soon be painting the units that supposedly display it the most :mrgreen:

EDIT: I do have a separate drawing of my fire sceptre sigil. But it needs some love, as I did it quickly and never took the time to vectorize it
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