Wesband, MP dungeon-crawler (now for Wesnoth 1.9.14+ !)

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Ken_Oh
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Ken_Oh »

Very cool. Thanks for the ideas. I especially like the runes and the thinking about how magic costs the character. I really don't like the idea of a mana system. It's cliché and Wesnoth can't even display it like it would need to be. Using movement is a good idea. Also, only allowing so many things active at once (like the runes) is a great idea.

I have thought about undead creation already. Since WCs are already made with plague staff, I was thinking Ghosts could be made that way too. A level 0 Ghost (probably using the pre 1.3.16 Ghost sprite) would be created with a "soul trap" dagger. With the base spirit and corpse units, the player could advance them. A WC could become a skel and hence use weapons, become a ghoul and gain claws and feeding (I know this isn't how Ghouls are made, but w/e), or stay as a WC and just gain HP, MP, attack strength and/or resistances. Ghosts could go the path of a Wraith or a Shadow. I was also thinking of a 3rd Banshee line with a better ranged wail attack.

So thanks, and you and anyone else, keep 'em coming. I'll be using just about anything I can get.

About ease and skill costs: I need to power the characters down a little, I think. Balance is on the list. And skill costs are currently wacky because there are many hold-overs from when players started with attributes all at 1. Again, it's on the list. I need to work on more-pressing things, like making items not cost 15.5 gold.
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Qes »

Ken_Oh wrote:Very cool. Thanks for the ideas. I especially like the runes and the thinking about how magic costs the character. I really don't like the idea of a mana system. It's cliché and Wesnoth can't even display it like it would need to be. Using movement is a good idea. Also, only allowing so many things active at once (like the runes) is a great idea.

I have thought about undead creation already. Since WCs are already made with plague staff, I was thinking Ghosts could be made that way too. A level 0 Ghost (probably using the pre 1.3.16 Ghost sprite) would be created with a "soul trap" dagger. With the base spirit and corpse units, the player could advance them. A WC could become a skel and hence use weapons, become a ghoul and gain claws and feeding (I know this isn't how Ghouls are made, but w/e), or stay as a WC and just gain HP, MP, attack strength and/or resistances. Ghosts could go the path of a Wraith or a Shadow. I was also thinking of a 3rd Banshee line with a better ranged wail attack.

So thanks, and you and anyone else, keep 'em coming. I'll be using just about anything I can get.

About ease and skill costs: I need to power the characters down a little, I think. Balance is on the list. And skill costs are currently wacky because there are many hold-overs from when players started with attributes all at 1. Again, it's on the list. I need to work on more-pressing things, like making items not cost 15.5 gold.
Very cool.

I tweaked my ideas some, refined them for easier comprehension. And I like the idea of magical items or unique items that would have special abilties not found or available to any character unless they found the weapon. I'd reserve something like your sou-trap idea for a specific weapon. As it sounds powerful and cool.

All my 'summons' are made to be temporary and weak, and cost the caster something in the ways of movement, and potential lost experience (experience not gained by the caster but by the summons).

I do really like the idea of weapons and items giving rare, bizare and powerful abilities not normally available. Becuase then whenever you get a 'crazy idea' - you can just relegate it to a weapon and implement it that way - thus not upsetting balance, as "finding treasure" is more or less random and out of the pervue of balance of the core.

:)

I dont mind the fractions - but i can see how developing this with them would get annoying.

Thanks again!
-Qes
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Fanghorn »

@Qes

Well that was alot. There are alot of great ideas for spells. Maybe a bit too many ideas for me right now but who cares. Now there is only the Deft and the Body branch left. In my oppinion there will be a lot of skills that are very similar with so many skills. But the System really lacks a competent support branch that all or most races can use. Actually id prefer a really modular rpg concept where you can choose freely how to develope your character (Skills dont have to be race dependant but dependant on stats and other prerequisites like weapons or skills). The different summoning possibilities are great but i would prefer Kens idea here too about a summon beeing developeable but then it should use the henchman slot. Allthough i have also to agree with Qes that summons should use up the possible xp making summons a double edged blade for the sake of the balance. Problem could be that a fully grown mage that put every point into mind wasnt able to lvl his spells and is just not able to harm anything else than himself. So if possible a fraction of xp should be send over to him through his summon possibly. or they have a similar ability like the proposed Troll magic spell that sends xp away from the user to the recipient(at least if its possible to keep hiddrn fractions of xp that way).

@Ken_oh

The new Weapon System looks prosperous and just needs to get support by a competent skills system that enables lots of specials on the weapons. Im looking forward to check the balancing.

The Soultrap idea is good but as i said before it would be good for balancing to not have more than one summon or one henchman.
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Ken_Oh »

Using xp for more powerful spells isn't a bad idea, but the problem arises when you consider that characters aren't constantly gaining xp. They lose it when they level. A fresh lvl 5 unit would have less casting power in that respect than a lvl 1 that has a kill under its belt. You could always make the xp go negative, but then it wouldn't be limiting.

Yes, I was thinking of making each non-main undead henchman lose hp and max hp every turn. That way you could have more than one unit via plague, and it would be useful, but only temporarily. If you already have a main undead follower and set another one as your main, then it would reset the max hp of the new one and then start to drain the old one.

More weapon skills are definitely are very needed. I'm trying to work up a list, but it's tough.

There are 3 types of weapon specials or abilities in this context:
-ones requiring a type of item (firststrike requires a spear, steadfast requires a tower shield)
-ones independent of items (leadership, bloodlust)
-"enchantments", which grant something without the need of a skill (none yet, but you can imagine)

The problem is you usually don't want these skills to overlap (why spend all those points into leadership if you're just going to find some "armor of leadership" later?). However, it might be good for some to overlap.

It's just another thing I need to think about. For a very short list: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfx4vf3d_16cmrcw2ff

I'm pulling ideas from the obvious places:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11999
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10674
And will be scouring the ideas forum.

Be sure to amass and post the ones you can think of.
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Max »

Ken_Oh wrote:Using xp for more powerful spells isn't a bad idea, but the problem arises when you consider that characters aren't constantly gaining xp. They lose it when they level. A fresh lvl 5 unit would have less casting power in that respect than a lvl 1 that has a kill under its belt. You could always make the xp go negative, but then it wouldn't be limiting.
this doesn't sound so bad - leveling up is most of the times a deliberate decision. and if negative xp would be limited based on the characters level? (e.g. 10 x level)?
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Ken_Oh »

Qes wrote:When using the arrow keys to scroll through the purchasables in the shops, if i push "down" past the last option, wesnoth will crash.
I'm clearing up bugs and stuff. I wasn't able to reproduce this crash in 1.2.12. Hopefully that's because it's fixed in Wesnoth, but please tell me if you're still getting it (SkeletonCrew and I have been sending PMs back and forth about [message] system bugs recently and he wants to know of any more).

I've got a to-do list that's a page long, so bear with me.
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Qes »

Ken_Oh wrote:Using xp for more powerful spells isn't a bad idea, but the problem arises when you consider that characters aren't constantly gaining xp. They lose it when they level. A fresh lvl 5 unit would have less casting power in that respect than a lvl 1 that has a kill under its belt. You could always make the xp go negative, but then it wouldn't be limiting.
I dont like the idea of experience being anything other than what it is for player characters. Casting "uber" spells could have "risk" associated with it, losing HP, and movement and evasion perhaps, or resistances - i.e. making them more suseptable to immanent death makes more sense to me. I've always disliked the idea that somehow someone "loses knowledge" if they cast a spell that required that knowledge.

Movement and HP costs make the caster suseptible enough IMHO.
Yes, I was thinking of making each non-main undead henchman lose hp and max hp every turn. That way you could have more than one unit via plague, and it would be useful, but only temporarily. If you already have a main undead follower and set another one as your main, then it would reset the max hp of the new one and then start to drain the old one.
Not to toot my own horn - but I'm not a fan of the idea of HP drain for summons. Why? Because those last few turns before it disappears are useless. If the summon is going to die from attacking a mage, becuase it's only got a few hp left, it's pretty useless.

I still suggest that the "timer" for the summons be the xp bar. If they're special (non-levelable) units - then having a xp bar that shrinks over time, say 9/100 xp and loses 1 experience a turn will last 9 turns. If the summon kills things (thus depriving the player the experience) it would "refresh" the timer by gaining experience. Also, if the summon isnt used for 8 turns, it's still as potent as it was on turn 1.

If every spell costs movement and/or life or other valueable resources, then keeping summons rather than just recasting the spell is also more preferable.
More weapon skills are definitely are very needed. I'm trying to work up a list, but it's tough.

There are 3 types of weapon specials or abilities in this context:
-ones requiring a type of item (firststrike requires a spear, steadfast requires a tower shield)
-ones independent of items (leadership, bloodlust)
-"enchantments", which grant something without the need of a skill (none yet, but you can imagine)

The problem is you usually don't want these skills to overlap (why spend all those points into leadership if you're just going to find some "armor of leadership" later?). However, it might be good for some to overlap.

It's just another thing I need to think about. For a very short list: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfx4vf3d_16cmrcw2ff

I'm pulling ideas from the obvious places:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11999
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10674
And will be scouring the ideas forum.

Be sure to amass and post the ones you can think of.
A small list of weapon abilities you might consider:
(fist abilities require the lack of a shield)
*Open-Hand (May not take Foot and fist) - For Fists only, gives the fist attack the slow weapon special.
*Throw - Each melee miss by the opponent damages the opponent by half their own damage value.
*Great Throw - Each melee miss by the opponent damages the opponent by their full damage value.
*Supreme Throw - When defending, if the opponent misses, combat is stopped and it is moved one hex away in the opposite direction from the defender. If this results in an "illegal" move, the results vary. If the throw is "off a cliff or into lava" or some equally dangerous place the unit is destroyed and the defender is given experience. If the throw would be into an impassable solid object (like a wall), the unit does not move but instead takes 50% of hit's Max HP in damage.
*Foot and Fist (may not take Open-hand) - Fist attack becomes "Fists and feet" and increases damage by 2 with each successive hit.
*Pressure Points - Each successful fist and feet attack decreases the damage of the opponent by 2 per hit. (for the round)
*Furious Fists - Each successful fist and feet attack increases immediate strikes by 1. (this can result in berzerk like behavior)
*Tornado Kick - While attacking, fist and feet attacks have a 60% chance to hit minimum.

(dagger abilities require the lack of a shield)
*Double Daggers (may not take tripple wield) - When duel-wielding two small blades, their strikes are doubled.

(staff abilities require the lack of a shield)
*Staff Warrior (May not take duelwield) - When using a staff, gain 10% evasion
*Staff Master - Staff attacks gain "stun" (on a successful hit, the opponents melee strikes are reduced to 0 for the round)
*Staff Grandmaster - Staff attacks gain +1 strike and Marksman weapon special.

*Carve - Successful axe attack reduces target's blade resistance by 5% per hit.
*Cleave - Successful axe attack does 1/2 damage to enemies adjacent to the target per hit.
*Carnage (may not use duel wield or use a shield) - Successful axe attack gives +1 immediate strikes (so the combat continues, if hitting at 100% this functions like berzerk)
*Decapitate (may not use duel wield or use a shield) - If axe attack kills the enemy, the axe-user immediately gains his/her attacks back for the round.
*Split (may not use duel wield or use a shield)- Successful axe attacks reduce enemy HP by half + their normal damage.

*Bludgeon - Successful Hammer hits reduce the target's impact resistance by 10% per hit for the round.
*Break - Successful Hammer hits break bones, against legal targets (those with bones) each successful hammer hit reduces the melee strikes of the target by 1 per hit.
*Sunder - Successful Hammer hit breaks targets melee weapon, attack used by enemy has it's damage reduced to 1, unless it is a "natural attack." I.e. claws, bites, etc are not effected, but swords, staves, and axes are. Only breaks the weapon used in combat if multiple melee weapons are available.
*Maul (may not have duel wield or use a shield) - Hammer attacks gain +25% damage.

(Saber skills require the lack of a shield)
*Disarm - Successful saber attacks remove non-natural weapons from their target. (A weapon is placed on the ground under the target = to the weapon it had been using, and it's attack is replaced with fists.) This only affects the attack used in that combat.
*Slash and Dash - Successful Saber attacks add 1 to movement for the turn (cannot go above max moves for the round).
*Duelist - Each miss by the target grants the Saber wielder 1 strike
*Cross and Cut - Each miss by the target lowers it's evasion by 5% against the Saber wielder.

*Twinblade (may not take tripplewield, may not use a shield) - When wielding two scimitars, strikes are doubled.
*Twinblade defense. - When wielding two scimitars, evasion is increased by 10%
*Whirling Dervish - When wielding two scimitars, each successful attack regains the character 1 movement point and the ability to attack again.
*Quickdraw (may not take duel wield, may not use a sheild) - When wielding a scimitar, gives the scimitar first strike.
*Iajustsu - When wielding a scimitar and defending, reduces the strikes to 1, but tripples the damage.
*Iajustsu Master - When wielding a scimitar and defending, tripples the damage (again) and wielder gains marksman (or 60% minimum to hit).

(Spear tactics are about utilizing misses as "biding time, and hitting hard when it counts"; and require the lack of a shield)
*Point and Pike - Each spear missed attack increases damage by 2 per miss. A successful hit resets the value.
*Poke and Pierce - Each spear missed attack decreases the targets pierce resistance by 5%. A successful hit resets the value.
*Slip and Skewer - Each spear missed attack decreases the targets evasion by 5%. A successful hit resets the value.
*Isolate and Impale - Each spear missed attack lowers the targets movement by 2. A successful hit resets the value.

*Power Thrust - Javelin melee attacks gain +25% damage, but lose 1 strike
*Quick Thrust - Javelin melee attacks gain 1 strikes, but lose 25% damage
*Atlatl - Javelin ranged attacks gain 50% damage.


(New weapons thoughts)
Longsword: Slightly less damage than a scimitar
*Longblade Defense - Wielder of Longsword gains 5% evasion
*Pressure - Each successful longsword strike lowers targets evasion by 5%
*Sharp Strikes - Each successful longsword strike increases the damage by 1 for the round.
*Glancing blow - Each missed longsword attack does 2 blade damage to the target.

Broadsword: Slightly more damage than a scimitar, but fewer strikes
*Hack - broadsword gains +1 strike per character level
*Decapitate (may not use duel wield or use a shield) - If broadsword attack kills the enemy, the broadsword-user immediately gains his/her attacks back for the round.
*Cleave - Successful broadsword attack does 1/2 damage to enemies adjacent to the target per hit.
*Slash - broadsword gains +2 damage per character level

Greatsword: Much more damage than scimitar, fewer strikes, may not use a shield when using this weapon
*Whirlwind - Attacks made affect all adjacent enemies.
*Unhorse - A successful Greatsword attack against a mounted unit (a unit riding something) replaces the unit with a dismounted version, which is as damaged (total damage taken) as when it was mounted. (Wolfriders become goblins, {and probably die}, Cavalrymen and Horsemen become Level 1 versions of swordsmen, Gryphon riders become fighters, etc.)
*Follow-through - If Greatsword user misses ALL attacks, he regains 1 movement per missed attack (may not gain more than maximum movement) and the ability to attack.
*Maim - Successful Greatsword strikes reduce the enemies Maximum and Current HP by 20% per hit.



Just some ideas. (Note, many of these build upon previous, like the Quickdraw -> Iajutsu -> Iajustsu Master. Also remember that in some cases things abilities may be repeated, but something else will be different - like the permissibility to use a shield or not. In the case of quickdraw, only spears also have firststrike - but spear wielders could get double and tripple wield, Quickdraw users cannot.)

Edit/added note:
Also keep in mind that some of these might be very very powerful - but their placement could require huge amounts of deft, mind or body requirements as well as other options being requisite, and some options being forbidden to get them.)
-Qes
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Qes »

Ranged Weapon Ideas:
Bow:
*Doubleshot (may not take marksman)- Lowers chance to hit by 20%, but does double damage per hit.
*Trippleshot - Lowers chance to hit by 30%, but does tripple damage per hit.
*Quadshot - Lowers chance to hit by 40%, but does quadruple the damage per hit.
*Arrowdagger - While equiping a bow, the character has a 4-1 melee peircing attack, it's damage increases with bow damage, but not it's strikes, which increase with "light blade" strikes.
*Warheads - Arrows become embeded and difficult to remove when they make impact. Each arrow adds a cumulative 1 bleeding damage (like poison) which only stops when healed in a village or by a heal8.

*Readied Crossbow - Crossbow attacks gain first strike
*Autobolts - Crossbow attacks gain 1 strike but lose 2 damage.
*Doublecrossbow, When attacking with a crossbow, the character regains the ability to attack in the round but only with another crossbow attack - this may only work once per turn/round.
*Idiotproofing - Missed crossbow attacks grant an immediate additional strike, but lose 50% of damage (cumulative).

*Daggerspray - Thrown Dagger attacks affect target and all enemies adjacent to the target but do 1/2 damage.
*Hidden daggers - When ambushing a target, thrown daggers do double damage.
*Thas not a Knoif - If wielding a small blade, the wielder gains a thrown dagger attack at the same damage value but with only 1 strike.
*This isa Knoif - If wielding a small blade, the wielder's thrown dagger has the weapon special "charge"
*Shuriken - Missed thrown dagger attacks do 1 damage per miss to the target.

*Sling Blade - Sling wielders gain an additional sling attack that does blade damage instead of impact at the same damage and strikes.
*Goliath Bane - When attacking with a sling, sling damage is mulitplied by x, where x is the level of the target.
*Showoff - When a target is killed by a sling attack, wielder gains double the experience
*Called Shot - When attacking with a sling, if the first strike connects, the defender loses all strikes

Just ideas.
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Ken_Oh »

These are very good. I wasn't thinking about weapon type-based attacks, but now that you're listing them, I see that weapons need to fit many of the specials, like how firststrike goes along with spear. When I'm ready, I'll be using very many of these. Thanks!

EDIT: Oh, about the summons losing XP idea, what you're talking about is a great idea. Necromancy would work differently, since it's not summoning but rather animating the dead. The concept is that your side might have extra WCs due to plague (or spirits, when that's done) created during a battle. That would basically benefit that battle only and maybe just the beginning of the next battle. Not focusing on the undead would cause them to deteriorate. But, yes, you would rather expect summons to either die normally or disappear at once rather than deteriorate.
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Qes »

Ken_Oh wrote:These are very good. I wasn't thinking about weapon type-based attacks, but now that you're listing them, I see that weapons need to fit many of the specials, like how firststrike goes along with spear. When I'm ready, I'll be using very many of these. Thanks!

EDIT: Oh, about the summons losing XP idea, what you're talking about is a great idea. Necromancy would work differently, since it's not summoning but rather animating the dead. The concept is that your side might have extra WCs due to plague (or spirits, when that's done) created during a battle. That would basically benefit that battle only and maybe just the beginning of the next battle. Not focusing on the undead would cause them to deteriorate. But, yes, you would rather expect summons to either die normally or disappear at once rather than deteriorate.
Oh, i missunderstood! That's a really cool idea!
:)
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Mabuse »

btw, ques, you are a real idea machine :D
*Furious Fists - Each successful fist and feet attack increases immediate strikes by 1. (this can result in berzerk like behavior)
*Tornado Kick - While attacking, fist and feet attacks have a 60% chance to hit minimum.
btw, muharharhar, pls add some cool bruce lees samples for that !!!!!
absolutely nice idea (and a nice combo)
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by theotherhiveking »

About the bug that shyde mentioned:

See attached screen, its impossible to go out of the menu.

(Im using 1.5.12-1.6rc1)
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Ken_Oh »

Did you have the era? The first two options are included from the Modular RPG. You have to have that era even if you don't use it.
Last edited by Ken_Oh on March 9th, 2009, 4:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Turuk »

Ken_Oh wrote: Did you have the era? The first two options are included from the Modular RPG. You have to have it even if you don't use it.
Indeed, I just downloaded and played Wesband with Modular RPG era and I did not get that bug, all of the menus worked normally.
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Re: Wesband (Now with relevant info in the first post)

Post by Ken_Oh »

Actually, that can't be it. The menu and the sprite on the screen are also within the era, so he has to have it. So I still have no idea why it's happening, as I can't reproduce it.
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