Captain Swings portrait work ... Undead

[Captain Swing]

I think Cernunnos was on to something bigger here, I see a bit of a perspective problem here illustrated by the red lines in the picture. The lower end part of his breast plate is in a different angle than the top part. changing it to line up more with the top would fix it.

The last thing is something that was pointed out before me, I think the head is too big, almost bigger than on a normal human, and the Draug is supposed to be a towering giant skeleton (at least in my mind). A smaller head would make the body seem larger.

Thanks Sleepwalker - you caught something there, or Cernunos caught something and you explained it so that my poor mind understands. I think it's something that should be easy enough to fix -- did a quick test with splines and here's the result of where the breastplate should be (I think)... Yeah so it's a bit sloppy, but I'm pretty sure I can hit it right with a pencil, and I can shrink his head while I'm at it.

[kitty]

your sketches are really, really cool and fun to look at! and the lines look much clearer in the latest attempts. you clearly have the talent and ability to produce great portraits (at least the sketching and inking part, the colouring is hold back by your lack of a tablet).

but your stuff has a really exaggerated comical feel, which is very different from the style we are currently employing for mainline. style is a stupid and fuzzy thing but we really aim for consistency now. i know that it is hard to change one's style (especially if it's one as nice looking and obviously skillful as yours) and i don't know if wesnoth can offer you enough motivation to do so.
in order to draw wesnoth genric portraits you'll need to use more normal camera angles, look into skull anatomy even more and use smaller helmets.

[Captain Swing]

your stuff has a really exaggerated comical feel, which is very different from the style we are currently employing for mainline. style is a stupid and fuzzy thing but we really aim for consistency now. i know that it is hard to change one's style (especially if it's one as nice looking and obviously skillful as yours) and i don't know if wesnoth can offer you enough motivation to do so.

in order to draw wesnoth gen[e]ric portraits you'll need to use more normal camera angles, look into skull anatomy even more and use smaller helmets.

Now, let me get this straight...The first posing attempt (regardless of its technical problems) was not dynamic enough, it appeared too small and not menacing enough. The second cannot be viable (I have not problem fixing the head size and reworking the skull until it meets standards) because it is too exaggerated and humorous -- specifically because it is from a low angle. Pardon me if I'm a bit buffaloed here, I am primarily doing this as a way to learn computer illustration skills, and don't mind trying to conform things to a 'style', but please don't take offense if I say you're confusing the heck out of me.

I'm making the changes sleepwalker suggested, and reducing the head size will make the helmet smaller as well. I will attempt to improve the skull, but may still need something more specific to get it right for you. If after this you still find my stuff impossible to match the look and feel you're going for I will take your suggestion and shoo.

...Swing

[doofus-01]

If the "style" is too tricky to pin down, there's always story art to be done. You could have your own style for that. The artist in this thread knew what he was doing, but gave up on portraits because of the "style".

It's just an idea. I doubt anyone wants you to shoo.
EDIT: Sorry, that could have been clearer. He tried to do portraits first, but gave up and then did that story art.

[kitty]

please don't get me wrong (english isn't my native language, please take that into account if you interpret my words), it's not in my interest at least to shoo you. as i already stated, i appreciate your work, but fiddeling with something as fluent and difficult to define as style is hard. not because yours is bad or anything but because certain things feel a tad too different atm. only little things that can be easily fixed, when you start your next drawing.

i'll try to explain what you describe with dynamism:
there is a difference between posture and camera angle. the posture of your first skeleton was very sunken down and powerless - that was what i criticized. what i mentioned about the new version among other things was that the camera angle you chose is very low. that's no knock-out criterion, but certainly unusual if you look at the portraits already ingame. and the low angle distorts certain features, which adds to the partially exaggerated proportions. that means you can choose a low angle to add more dynamic or the like if you already work in a consistent style, but if we (or you ) still try to match it, it complicates the matter, because it adds to a different feeling.
so: please, please keep on working, the drawings you've shown us get closer and closer

[Boucman]

ops, I didn't give the "new artist walkthrough" here...


quoting one of my old mails

Ok, obviously you know what your doing and your first try is close enough to mainline style to show that you'll be able to use that style with little training

so I'll give you a quick tour of our Art community so you don't get lost

basically our forums are architected around forum titles ( written under the people names, mine is "patch monkey")

* no title (or not art related title) => did nothing with regard to art
* art contributors => have shown some artistic talents
* art developers => have contributed to wesnoth
* art director (jetryl) => give the go/no-go to contributions


it is important for you to understand that discussion, because people with no art knowledge do not give comment and critics as good as people with art knowledge.

If you disagree with a comment from someone with no title, just don't follow the advice

you should consider comments from art contributors and developers as comments comming from knowledgeable people, and worth considering... Of course, your art is yours and you are free to not follow the advice, but you should consider them.

Jetryl usually have very clear comments which tell if a change is needed to get something into mainline or just a sugestion to improve.


Now the forums...

we have three art related forums
* "Art contributions" is for pieces of art intended for mainline
* "Art workshop" is for pieces for user made content
* "Art development" is limited to people with an art title. Some artists don't like having their work openly criticised, and post there instead of the open forums...



One last point... All wesnoth contributions are made under the GPL. I am not good at explaining legalese, but you should read it since your work have high chances of being mainlined at some point...


good luck with the portrait, it looks great

here, sleepwalker is not a recognized artist, so you can dismiss his critics if you disagree with them...

kitty on the other hand

[thespaceinvader]

At the risk of repeating myself, I'd say again that you've chosen a very demanding subject in a skeleton unit - the realism requirements are high, and your style lends itself well to more exaggerated subject matter. Please don't take the comments you're receiving the wrong way - we'd like for you to stay on the team, your input will be very useful, I'm certain. But you may be better starting with another group of units wherein you can exaggerate proportions a little more, and there are less strict realism requirements. Trolls, woses, yeti, ghouls and necrophages all could be great areas for you to work on.

Or alternatively, User-Made Content makers are always on the look-out for killed artists, and will probably leave you room for a more exaggerated style.

To further what Boucman said, Kitty has go/nogo on portraits, as her title suggests. Jetryl has stated that he would run any portraits he did by her first, although of course his word retains a lot of weight.

[Captain Swing]

please don't get me wrong (english isn't my native language, please take that into account if you interpret my words), it's not in my interest at least to shoo you. as i already stated, i appreciate your work, but fiddeling with something as fluent and difficult to define as style is hard. not because yours is bad or anything but because certain things feel a tad too different atm. only little things that can be easily fixed, when you start your next drawing.

what i mentioned about the new version among other things was that the camera angle you chose is very low. that's no knock-out criterion, but certainly unusual if you look at the portraits already ingame. and the low angle distorts certain features, which adds to the partially exaggerated proportions. that means you can choose a low angle to add more dynamic or the like if you already work in a consistent style, but if we (or you ) still try to match it, it complicates the matter, because it adds to a different feeling.

Well I guess I misread your earlier post a bit, and if English is your second language, you are more fluent than many native English speakers (errr writers). Anyway, I understand the strict style criteria here, but I'd still rather attempt to work this portrait into something that is close to or conversant with that chosen style. It's true these things are nebulous, but if you think there's potential in my work, I'm willing to keep revising it if given direction. Why? Well first it's good practice, and second because I figure if I will have to learn the Wesnoth style eventually if I wish to contribute. Better to get things actually right then sorta right and have to learn them right again in the future.

Anyway - Here's a sketch I did for the Wraith, though after the above discussion of Wesnoth style I am almost postive it goes way too far into the exaggerated realm, though I would suggest that the ghost line might be a place where this would be somewhat more acceptable (somewhat - I'm pretty sure this is worthless except as a proof of concept sort of thing.)

ghostsm.png (157.17 KiB) Viewed 3963 times

Additionally I did another, rather drastic revision on the Draug - redid the head and torso completely (it's in red ink). I think the skull is far more realistic, but then I though the skull before was pretty realistic as well... I also fixed the armor, which is both better proportionally (Sleepwalker, regardless of editorial status was correct) and reduces the feeling exaggerated angles a bit I think. I am concerned that the head is too small now - but at least it can be easily chopped out and grown/shrunk now.

smaller head new chest

DraugDh2linesrevisa.png (84.34 KiB) Viewed 3960 times

... Swing

[Rocket Slug]

That wraith is really, really cool! I actually don't think it's all that exaggerated. I really like how he's holding onto his sword with his hand. It looks like he's purposely cutting himself; suggesting that he's crazy and/or powerful enough to handle his blade directly like that.

And for the Draug, now that you've redrawn the breastplate, it doesn't feel like you're looking from such a low angle anymore, so I get the feeling that it "fits" the Wesnoth style a lot better.

[thespaceinvader]

The wraith look GREAT. I think the level of exaggeration looks pitched about right, and you're right that there's probably more latitude for it with that line. Rendering it would be an interesting challenge, though.

The draug looks much better with the new size head. BUt i think the head's still a little deep, and the lower jaw looks a little small. I really like the armour, and the helm's a nice touch - very distinctive. Keep up the good work.

[Kestenvarn]

Is there anything you can add to fill in that gap between the head and the shoulder, so the head feels more connected to the body? The figure has lost some of his stoutness.

[Captain Swing]

So moved the head over a wee bit to close that gap, and because it works better with the new armor shape. Also reshaped the chestplate where it bugged me and fiddled with the jaw (I think his teeth may be too big),

I'm going to wait to here Kitty's thoughts before I make anymore changes unless someone sees anything obviously, truly off. Also waiting on the wraith, but I am glad you like him -- I thought he was maybe bit cheesey (especially his geometric shoulder armor...)

[Darker_Dreams]

Is there anything you can add to fill in that gap between the head and the shoulder, so the head feels more connected to the body? The figure has lost some of his stoutness.

have you considered using a gorget? it'd help close some of that neck space and give a feeling of (slightly) greater bulk (and thus menace, something you were worried about originally)

[LordBob]

He's looking a lot better with those thin lines.

If I may, the shape of the pauldron blade on the right (the one next to the axe) is a bit odd, as it doesn't match the blade of the left one
Also, on the lift side, the lower line of the couter (that's how they name the elbow guard, apparently) has an odd angle & curve which could get better.



The wraith is taking a good direction, but could get better:
- It took me a while to figure out the hood. It would be easier to read if it behaved more like heavy whool cloth (it's the swollen look that bothers me I think)
-
- The spiky angular armour is a nice touch, yet I'd like to feel a bit more realism in it. What I'd like to see is the same angles and spikes, but on more complicated armour, i.e. armour which feels it can actually articulate, contain limbs, has attach points etc.
- While cool looking, the handle of the sword is simply too wide for anyone to hold. I feel it would look better if you kept this shape for the pommel and combined it with a realistic handle.
- This one's my personal taste, but I'm not fond of the hilt. It looks crude compared to the razor-sharp spikes & blades

[Kestenvarn]

Is there anything you can add to fill in that gap between the head and the shoulder, so the head feels more connected to the body? The figure has lost some of his stoutness.

have you considered using a gorget? it'd help close some of that neck space and give a feeling of (slightly) greater bulk (and thus menace, something you were worried about originally)

Yeah, if you wanted, something like this or having a guard round the back of the neck might help. Or possibly a chain/mesh hanging down the back of the helm.