Return of the fencer, part deux

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Sgt. Groovy
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Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

Seeing that the loyalist portraiture is getting along in swift pace, I was inspired to resurrect my own fencer project. Let's see if I manage to actually complete it this time. :P

I used the same basic concept as previously, but made a complete redraw. This time I'm relatively pleased with the pose, it begins to show signs of that lazy cockiness and arrogance I always imagine the fencers revelling in:
Attachments
fencerdeux.png
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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kitty
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by kitty »

nice to see something from you again! you are a bit obsessed with the fencer, aren't you (may i ask if there is a backstory?!)?

first thing that strikes me is that he seems a bit weakish. i know you want to depict a spoiled brat but he is a fighter, too! it's not so much the outfit (which's open shirt and codpiece i like) but the "spineless" stance.
other little nitpicks are the very small hand (don't tell me about your own small hands again :P) and the too small jaw. and there is something strange with the shape of the ear (but i guess you'll correct that while inking).

i'm curious how he'll turn out (and if you or lordbob will be quicker)!

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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

you are a bit obsessed with the fencer, aren't you (may i ask if there is a backstory?!)?
Not with the fencer per se, but with completing something. Fencer was what I started with when I begun making art for Wesnoth, and I'd like to get it finished before I'm too old to draw.

The hand and jaw are getting bigger in inking but stiffing up the stance would require another redraw (though adjusting the folds of the shirt might change the impression of the stance a bit, the baggy shirt actually hides much of the information about the exact position of the torso, but our mind fills the gap with other ques there are, even though they might not accurately reflect the actual shape).
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

deserter
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by deserter »

His chest looks a bit flat IMO. It probably has everything to do with the strap that goes over his chest in a straightish manner. :P

Also I thinkt that he is the best of your fencers so far. :)

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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

Modified version, bigger hand and chin. Belt moved and shirt adjusted a bit, which I hope removes some of the "slouch" from his posture:
Attachments
fencerdeux2.png
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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kitty
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by kitty »

ok, so it's a personal question to "defeat" him...

the latest version's changes are too timid. the hand is hardly larger now, you only elongated the fingers a tad... eternal is on the right track with the strap, it mainly adds to the flat-chested impression - but in your edit you made it wider around the belly, not the chest...

keep on working!

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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

eternal is on the right track with the strap, it mainly adds to the flat-chested impression - but in your edit you made it wider around the belly, not the chest...
The position of the belt in the second version is based on real-life reference, and it's actually quite realistic. The thing is, if you're a man and you haven't specifically worked out your pectoral muscles, that area of your chest is pretty flat. The fleshy, round pectorals we have become to think as essential part of the male body are in fact quite a recent invention, and I'm talkin about few decades here. Just look at this:

Image

That's Muhammad Ali, at the peak of his game, and while he was one of the top athletes in the world, but by 21st century standards, his pecs really aren't anything to brag about. If boxing doesn't build bigger pecs that that, then fencing sure doesn't either (and if you look at pro fencers, they tend to be rather slim).

But I do agree that the current belt somehow steals something from his body volume, and I'll keep editing it.
the hand is hardly larger now, you only elongated the fingers a tad
Actually, I did widen the palm also, and the hand really isn't all that minuscule if you compare it to the face (see below). The width of the palm is 1/3-1/2 "heads" and the hand was originally 1/3, but closer to 1/2 now. It's not really the size of the hand, but something about it's shape that makes it look too small. I believe it might be that the distance between the knuckles and the wrist joint is too small.
Attachments
fencerhand.png
fencerhand.png (17.65 KiB) Viewed 4469 times
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

I'm probably distracting myself again, but I've had this idea for the duelist for quite some time, and I had to finally try it out on the paper. I was aiming for a sort of "gunslinger" feel, getting adventurous and seeing if I can get away with a frontal pose:
Attachments
duelistdeux.png
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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Orcish Shyde
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by Orcish Shyde »

Sgt. Groovy wrote:I'm probably distracting myself again, but I've had this idea for the duelist for quite some time, and I had to finally try it out on the paper. I was aiming for a sort of "gunslinger" feel, getting adventurous and seeing if I can get away with a frontal pose:
The pose is boring, but I love the look he's giving - "Don't f*** with me, I'm a master swordsman scrapping for a fight!"
The costume is also great if you ask me.
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Girgistian
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by Girgistian »

Lacking the proficiency to comment on the anatomical issues (there are some concerning the poses and the hands), I'll have a word about the costuming. Generally these are well done, and I'd like to see how you'd colour them - sketches leave a lot for imagination, after all.

The renaissance style these guys have is, as far as I know, pretty accurate and fitting, concerning their social status and all that, but it strongly contradicts the look other wesnoth characters have. We've got full plate soldiers with maces and orcs with weapons that match the word 'cleaver' more than 'sword', so swordmasters wearing pantyhoses and feathers the size of a boot wouldn't be the sight to see on a battlefield. Sure, they give the portraits a lot of character and a very noblish feel, but no matter how culturally accurate something is, it can still look daft in the eyes of a modern player. Most of the clothing in the current sketces is good and fitting, but the main goal with these is to make them look good - that's where the first sketch's cod-piece and the second one's shirt sort of fail. Personally, I'd say these would look a lot better if you took out the most ridiculous and disturbing (the cod-piece somehow draws all the attention...) parts.

Good work, *add encouragement here*
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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

The renaissance style these guys have is, as far as I know, pretty accurate and fitting, concerning their social status and all that, but it strongly contradicts the look other wesnoth characters have. We've got full plate soldiers with maces and orcs with weapons that match the word 'cleaver' more than 'sword', so swordmasters wearing pantyhoses and feathers the size of a boot wouldn't be the sight to see on a battlefield.
There's the problem that the fencer unit line is actually a bit of a technological anachronism in the Wesnoth world, because historically their fighting style really only emerged when firearms made armour obsolete. If we can stretch realism enough to allow renaissance weapons and fighting style in Wesnoth, then why not also allow renaissance clothing style to go with it?

And actually "swordmasters wearing pantyhoses and feathers the size of a boot" were not unusual sight on the battlefields of late. My duelist would look pretty plain and timid among the Landsknechts. I strongly disagree that we should avoid things that "look daft in the eyes of a modern player" because it's precisely those things that create the otherworldly atmosphere a fantasy setting should have.
The pose is boring
I agree, actually, it came out stiffer and more static than my original vision. Proper lighting can give a more dynamic look, though.
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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kitty
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by kitty »

groovy - i really don't want to argue. he looks flat chested. just breath in and stand like your orthopaedist likes you to do. i'm not talking about his muscles but about his posture.

and concerning the costume-discussion - if you manage it to make your renaissance props look good, non completely ridiculous (to a today viewer's eye - a bit strange and unfamiliar is great but too much helps no one) and fitting with the rest of the loyalists the codpiece etc. is fine with me.

deserter
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by deserter »

kitty wrote:eternal is on the right track with the strap, it mainly adds to the flat-chested impression
I'm not eternal. I'm quite mortal actually. :P

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TL
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by TL »

I think your protestations of anachronism may be misplaced. The general aesthetic among the loyalists at least seems to be pretty close to renaissance-bordering-on-early-modern to begin with. A lot of the armor on the sprites looks like the style that coexisted quite nicely with rapiers and muskets, for all that there's probably too much of it. The absence of guns* (which as I understand it weren't always absent: those single-shot "crossbows" apparently used to be firearms) sticks out worse than the presence of fencers, in my opinion.

*not counting dwarvish guns-which-are-not-guns.

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kitty
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Re: Return of the fencer, part deux

Post by kitty »

ups, sorry deserter! :oops:

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