Luck rant [split from Luck in Wesnoth: Rationale]

[MDG]

Perhaps you should read my post above and revise your oh so informed opinions. Right now you're just regurgitating your own biased perception of what you've been told or want to believe. When you actually listen to what people are saying perhaps you'll realize that they aren't saying what you think they are at all.

Good day to you.

so explain to me what im not understanding? has all ur lolligaging and complaining got u anywhere? seems to me wesnoth is the same as its always been despite ur oh so brilliant ideas as to why the rng is horrible where does gripping about the game get you? no one is forcing u to play i really dont understand the purpose in these threads at all they have been around for so long yet have gone absoulty no where

Having read JW's post, it seems clear to me he is no longer requesting that the developer's change the rng, he's merely asking them to clarify going forward what their objective is regarding what level of competitiveness they would like to achieve on the MP side of things. If anything, JW's suggestion may help reduce the occurrence of rng related threads (unlikely to ever be eliminated though). He's also not mocking/sneering/ridiculing the way you are. If you can't post constructively in a topic this sensitive then please spare the rest of us (and you are unlikely to post constructively if you don't read/understand other people's posts...).

EDIT: posted at the same time as Zookeeper.

[SkeleRanger]

EDIT: posted at the same time as Zookeeper.

Nah, I was watching. It was shortly after.

PS: Just trying to lighten up a sensitive topic.

[ilor]

...and defence/chance-to-hit in Wesnoth has no relevance whatsoever?

Thats what im saying. homm3 has just damage ranges, and quite conservative ones - the max damage was iirc never more than 2x higher than min damage, while wesnoth can have jackpot all-hits or none-hits with its cth system.

HOMM3 has a potentially battle-turning morale feature which basically gives you (randomly!) a free extra move with a unit. This is *huge* when it's a difference between reaching the opponent a turn early, or when it happens on a powerful unit. There's also a "luck" thing which might drastically increase the damage, but it's generally less of an issue.

[mrmoose]

perhaps not jw specifically but are u trying to tell me the purpose of these threads is not to attempt to pursuade? im just pointing out that its farily obvious that nothing is going to get changed so gripping about it wont help anything.

[Blarumyrran]

HOMM3 has a potentially battle-turning morale feature which basically gives you (randomly!) a free extra move with a unit. This is *huge* when it's a difference between reaching the opponent a turn early, or when it happens on a powerful unit. There's also a "luck" thing which might drastically increase the damage, but it's generally less of an issue.

The morale&luck dont happen _that_ often even on max morale&luck, and in a lot of battles both sides will have neutral or near-neutral luck.

And the wesnoth cth really _is_ that luck-based that it weights up the homm3 morale&luck+damagerange+chancebasedattackspecials, imo. (and i dunno about others, but i used expert Curse and expert Bless a lot, resulting in eliminating the damage range)

Of course, homm3wog on a standard map with "wogify" is strategically so random that its not even comparable to wesnoth - but im talking about standard homm3 above

[Jozrael]

There are no turn-based games on WCG. RTS, FPS, racing, Guitar Hero, arcade fighter, MMORPG, and sports are the genres of the games on the current list.

This doesn't render invalid JW's argument that players may come to Wesnoth expecting a level of competition they've grown accustomed to from other genres, and finding their assumptions invalid.

[Quietus]

perhaps not jw specifically but are u trying to tell me the purpose of these threads is not to attempt to pursuade? im just pointing out that its farily obvious that nothing is going to get changed so gripping about it wont help anything.

Yes but everyone likes a good rant once in a while. However usually people that rant about the luck in wensoth are new to the forum and have often just had bad luck with the game. JW is a respective member of the forum who has been part of the game (for years?). Hell he is the celestial monarch (or something like that). I think this may say that if some of the more advance players want change than maybe the issue of luck might be worth considering

[svek]

I would also clarify that any tournaments set up are for entertainment purposes only and do not clearly determine who the best Wesnoth players are.

I think you're seriously overstating the effect of luck over a series of games. A tournament will show who the best player in it is as much as the World Cup shows which nation has the best football team. (Or nearly so at least.)
If the finalists of the upcoming TOC aren't the two I think it will be (nani & Wintermute) it's more likely because I've misjudged their skill than any bad luck on their part.

[JW]

Yes but everyone likes a good rant once in a while. However usually people that rant about the luck in wensoth are new to the forum and have often just had bad luck with the game. JW is a respective member of the forum who has been part of the game (for years?). Hell he is the celestial monarch (or something like that). I think this may say that if some of the more advance players want change than maybe the issue of luck might be worth considering

Celestial Herald. (thanks Jet)
edit: I just noticed someone removed that. How awesome are you (to that dev)? Such a trivial thing seems silly to go and remove. Also removing my avatar of the EOM was a nice move which I didn't mention until now (though was done a while ago). Why does someone feel the need to strip me of these things?

But yeah, almost 3 years on the forums now. Of course I haven't played for all of them, though I did play for a few months before registering. I think I found Wesnoth in 1.0.2 stage...maybe 1.0.1. The SP was fun, but when I found MP that really changed the game for me.

I would also clarify that any tournaments set up are for entertainment purposes only and do not clearly determine who the best Wesnoth players are.

I think you're seriously overstating the effect of luck over a series of games. A tournament will show who the best player in it is as much as the World Cup shows which nation has the best football team. (Or nearly so at least.)
If the finalists of the upcoming TOC aren't the two I think it will be (nani & Wintermute) it's more likely because I've misjudged their skill than any bad luck on their part.

What I meant with that statement is that just because they are the final two players doesn't mean they were the best two. It may be the case that they were the best two, but generally you would have to delve into the strategy of each player and how they played to really determine that - not just rely on the wins and losses. W/L ratio really is a better determinant of who is better is games that rely on almost no luck such as FPSs, etc.

Hell, even in WoW there's a pretty significant randomness factor in how their arena system is set up. This apparently has been a major stumbling block on it becoming an e-sport (from what I've heard).

[JW]

so explain to me what im not understanding? has all ur lolligaging and complaining got u anywhere?

I'm going to a fine law school and will graduate in 2010 and be making damn good money for the rest of my life.

seems to me wesnoth is the same as its always been despite ur oh so brilliant ideas as to why the rng is horrible

You mean the same as its always been from Sept. 18th of this year? You're probably right. Some things have remained the same over the 3 years I've been around, but others have not. I always thought that the ever-evolving nature of an OSS game made it so that the game could always be improving. I thought that altering the luck system would be an improvement to the game, so I have fought for it (though if you read above....). That thought came out of what I was expecting from Wesnoth however. And you would be surprised how many of my ideas have gotten into the game over the course of these 3 years.

where does gripping about the game get you? no one is forcing u to play i really dont understand the purpose in these threads at all they have been around for so long yet have gone absoulty no where

Didn't I say that I don't play anymore? It's also clear to me that you don't understand. We can both agree on that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Having read JW's post, it seems clear to me he is no longer requesting that the developer's change the rng, he's merely asking them to clarify going forward what their objective is regarding what level of competitiveness they would like to achieve on the MP side of things. If anything, JW's suggestion may help reduce the occurrence of rng related threads (unlikely to ever be eliminated though). He's also not mocking/sneering/ridiculing the way you are. If you can't post constructively in a topic this sensitive then please spare the rest of us (and you are unlikely to post constructively if you don't read/understand other people's posts...).

EDIT: posted at the same time as Zookeeper.

This is true MDG. You would probably be surprised how much easier it would be if such a statement existed as the one I proposed. I imagine 99% of the complaints would disappear.

[Noy]

For four world cups I've watched the New Zealand All Blacks never won the Webb Ellis trophy, despite consistantly having the most dominant team in the world. Dan Marino was probably one of the greatest QBs in NFL history. Under his guidance the Miami Dolphins entered the playoffs 10 times. Yet Marino and the Dolphins never won a Superbowl though, despite being playing some of the most exciting football in NFL history. Its not fair is it? Does that mean we should change Rugby, Football or any other game to make it "more fair?" Does it make them any less competitive? Of course not, because that is the nature of the game, it is what you hone your skills on.

Wesnoth is no different in this respects. I will repeat this again for the last time; The most critical skill in the game is risk management in a strategic/operational setting. Yes its not a perfect wargame; its units are stylized and fictional. Yet it encourages a player to develop certain set of skills that other games do not have. It is those skills which Wesnoth tests its players. And it is a skill, some of whom excel at. A detailed examination of the ladder shows it. You have people like Gallifax with accounts over 200 games played and 80+% wins. The ToC winners all were deserving players; DK, Soliton, and Ereksos. They have real skill at the game, understanding probabilities and crafting and re-crafting responses according to situational dictates.

To provide the uncertainty, we use an imperfect system, its true. Some games will get ruined and none of us have claimed otherwise. What is the percentage is a matter of perspective. Yet that flaw actually allows us to create the conceptual playing field on which players test their skills. Suggested fixes to that system are for the most part unacceptable, because they diminish the core of the gameplay experience. While some have claimed this ruins the competitiveness of this game, I and others disagree; removing or diminishing the reach of randomness would make the game disappear itself.

The developers of Wesnoth feel that the uncertainty model is an legitimate and significant innovation, to other games in its genre. Is well-balanced, leading to a fun experience that is different to many of the other games that some people feel Wesnoth should be more like. We recognize that some people dislike Wesnoth, just as some people dislike any game, however we are perfectly happy the way it is.

Further, we have heard numerous arguments for and again the various aspects of Wesnoth's uncertainty model. We understand people might disagree with our perspective, and thats acceptable; disagreements happen all the time. We don't go into this with our heads in the sand, we've argued this countless times. If anything its made us sharper with our arguments and develop a better understanding of the game. However at this point we've made our perspective as clear as possible, and subsequent discussion probably won't change anyone's decision.

We don't know how many people in total will end up playing and enjoying Wesnoth, since we've spent our time developing a game we enjoy rather than doing 'market research'. We hope that many people enjoy Wesnoth and play it in single player and/or multiplayer modes, however we aren't going to speculate on how large Wesnoth's various sub-communities will ultimately grow.

[Fosprey]

Heroes3: It had MORE LUCK than wesnoth. I've been a lot in the heroes "competitive community" And you had to make TONS of ruels to play to reduce the infinite luck there was in heroes3. No this, no thtat, not else.
But did it hurt the competitive environment? of course, plz, the competitive community of heroes was a joke, i'be been top 10 of the most important heroes 3 ladder on TOC, i know what i'm talking about.
In fact heroes 3 randomness was Atrocious bad.

To people talking about WCG. WCG is not a parameter for anything. They don't have Street fighter, SSMB, Pump it up, or a lot of other games that are STRONGLY played in a competitive way around the world.

I consider a STRONG competion on a game, when it's widely played , There are PLENTY OF tournaments, and generaly more than one ladder, or league in the world.
Period wesnoth will never achieve that, AND NO WARGAME WILL BE ABLE TO.

But a TBS with incomplete information can, hope i can show it!

Btw, i don't know anything about rugby so i can't comment on that.

[JW]

For four world cups I've watched the New Zealand All Blacks never won the Webb Ellis trophy, despite consistantly having the most dominant team in the world. Dan Marino was probably one of the greatest QBs in NFL history. Under his guidance the Miami Dolphins entered the playoffs 10 times. Yet Marino and the Dolphins never won a Superbowl though, despite being playing some of the most exciting football in NFL history. Its not fair is it? Does that mean we should change Rugby, Football or any other game to make it "more fair?" Does it make them any less competitive? Of course not, because that is the nature of the game, it is what you hone your skills on.

Your anaology to sports is off, Noy. Not only are all actors making conscious, non-random decisions that directly affect what happens, but your specific example with Dan Marino is worse because one man does not control the outcome of a game in football. Surely if you know anything about American football you would know that.

Wesnoth is no different in this respects. I will repeat this again for the last time; The most critical skill in the game is risk management in a strategic/operational setting. Yes its not a perfect wargame; its units are stylized and fictional. Yet it encourages a player to develop certain set of skills that other games do not have. It is those skills which Wesnoth tests its players. And it is a skill, some of whom excel at. A detailed examination of the ladder shows it. You have people like Gallifax with accounts over 200 games played and 80+% wins. The ToC winners all were deserving players; DK, Soliton, and Ereksos. They have real skill at the game, understanding probabilities and crafting and re-crafting responses according to situational dictates.

Yes, they have great skills at a gambling game, much like the top poker players in the world. There is skill involved, yet they do not win all the time. Are you completely disregarding the point I made in several posts now?

To provide the uncertainty, we use an imperfect system, its true. Some games will get ruined and none of us have claimed otherwise. What is the percentage is a matter of perspective. Yet that flaw actually allows us to create the conceptual playing field on which players test their skills. Suggested fixes to that system are for the most part unacceptable, because they diminish the core of the gameplay experience. While some have claimed this ruins the competitiveness of this game, I and others disagree; removing or diminishing the reach of randomness would make the game disappear itself.

You are still not acknowledging the distinction between competitive games that utilize randomness to a small, insignificant degree, and gambling games where luck is an integral factor in determining the outcome. Again, I ask why?

The developers of Wesnoth feel that the uncertainty model is an legitimate and significant innovation, to other games in its genre. Is well-balanced, leading to a fun experience that is different to many of the other games that some people feel Wesnoth should be more like. We recognize that some people dislike Wesnoth, just as some people dislike any game, however we are perfectly happy the way it is.

Like I mentioned above, the gambling paradigm does have its advantages. It is not a competitive MP game though, no matter how much you may tell yourself that. Again I ask if you have read my posts.

Further, we have heard numerous arguments for and again the various aspects of Wesnoth's uncertainty model. We understand people might disagree with our perspective, and thats acceptable; disagreements happen all the time. We don't go into this with our heads in the sand, we've argued this countless times. If anything its made us sharper with our arguments and develop a better understanding of the game. However at this point we've made our perspective as clear as possible, and subsequent discussion probably won't change anyone's decision.

Actually, you have not made a single reference to anything I discussed. Surely not addressing arguments in a discussion is not "sharp."

Please try reading my posts and addressing my points Noy. We've had arguments in the past about several things, but I hope you can use logic and reason to understand that I'm trying to help you guys with this issue. If you truly wish to ignore what I write you may choose to do so, but everyone can see that you are just talking past me and not to me.

[JW]

Just to sum up my points (some made by others that I am using):

1) Wesnoth uses luck like gambling games do
2) Because of this Wesnoth is not like other competitive games
3) Wesnoth gives the impression that it tries to be a competitive game
4) Confusion arises and people are upset when the luck is not how they expected
5) People post
6) Generally people get their panties in a bunch


If Wesnoth would just openly express in some way that it's not like other games and that expectations should be different, there wouldn't be so many problems.

[Jozrael]

I think a key differentiation here is that Wesnoth is not like other competitive games, yet it is still (obviously) competitive. I think the biggest friction arises when people approach Wesnoth as if it were like a stereotypical competitive game, where only their raw skill should matter (plus, they've not realized that dealing with and anticipating the RNG is a skill in and of itself). But that is neither here nor there.

I agree with both Noy and JW here. Noy, you have long since convinced me of the value of the RNG to Wesnoth. I don't want it changed in the slightest. I also think that JW has conceded that the RNG will not change and is no longer trying to accomplish this. What he's trying to do is reduce the number of arguments about the RNG by saying that Wesnoth is not a competitive game.

While I believe that he's correct that it is not a competitive game in the mold of the leaders of the competitive gaming scene, I think that it is competitive in a different form. I thus agree that perhaps his request for a statement that Wesnoth is competitive in a different sense than virtually any other game (the competitive gaming scene harbors no tolerance for randomness of any sort, and professional gambling is at the other end of the spectrum. Wesnoth is neither of them, but still a competitive game in its own right).

So Noy, while I don't disagree with a word you said in your last post (I wholeheartedly endorse all of them), I don't think you're addressing the point JW is making (and that I'm now inclined to agree with). He's not asking for the RNG to change, he's just asking for you to recognize that Wesnoth is a different type of competitive, and announce that (in some fashion) so that SOME of these RNG discussions are derailed, and you can hereafter point to that statement when someone whines about the fact that competitive games don't have randomness.