RIPLIB & the Merfolk Hoplite

[peet]

The Hoplite advances from the Warrior.

The warrior has a melee attack of 8-4.
The hoplite has a melee attack of 15-2.

So the hoplite does 2 points less damage than its predecessor.

Perhaps it could be increased to 16-2 just to make sure that the damage it deals does not actually go down when it levels up. Actually, it might have to be 17-2 if we consider the potential impact of the strong trait.

While we're on the merfolk theme, there was something else that occurred to me:
The fighter (L1) has 3 attacks (6-3) with his trident.
The warrior (L2) has 4 attacks (8-4).
The Triton (L3) has either 3 attacks (14-3) or 2 attacks (19-2).

It seems a little strange thematically that the number of attacks would go up when going to level 2, then go down again when leveling to level 3.

It wouldn't make that much difference gamewise, but I have to wonder if it wouldn't be better to have the warrior's attack have only three swings, i.e. 10-3 or 11-3. The damage should be made to stay about the same.

Actually, if the warrior was changed to 10-3 it would solve the issue with the hoplite as well.

Peet

[Trau]

RIPLIB need only apply for one level-up branch (the Triton). This is also why Swordsmen/Pikemen losing a ranged attack, Pillagers losing slash, and Sorceresses losing heal do not violate RIPLIB.

[AI]

Both branches lose their 4th attack though.

[Trau]

Hmmm... I'll be damned...

edit: Looks like I was thinking of the 1.2 Triton

[Null]

Actually, I brought this up a few months ago. People more or less said that the Hoplite was somehow stronger because it had two powerful attacks instead of four weaker ones (even if the four totaled two more damage), and that it didn't violate RIBLIB because it gained the steadfast ability.

I still disagree though the Hoplite should in my opinion be made stronger.

EDIT: Here is the thread http://forum.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php? ... 9&p=274548

[Nebiros]

The Hoplite also gets 20% resistance to blade, impact and fire, 30% to pierce, and an extra 10% to cold (for a total of 30%). Which is convenient, because otherwise steadfast would do basically nothing for him.


An alternative to fix the RIPLIB problem would be to change the triton's pierce attack to 10-4 or 11-4, which would allow it to satisfy RIPLIB, and also distinguish the triton's two attacks more (against enemies that don't heavily resist one or the other). As for the hoplite, I think it is good at what it does (mainly, defend water/swamp hexes/villages), but what it does is not needed often and L3 units are rare in general.

[TL]

Actually, I brought this up a few months ago. People more or less said that the Hoplite was somehow stronger because it had two powerful attacks instead of four weaker ones (even if the four totaled two more damage), and that it didn't violate RIBLIB because it gained the steadfast ability.

Er. No, people didn't more or less say that; they said that the Warrior->Triton advancement didn't violate RIPLIB because there was an alternative that didn't sacrifice anything (at the time, anyhow, back when Tritons were 11-4), and that steadfast was a very useful ability which went a long ways to compensating for a slight reduction in attack strength.

[peet]

It seems that both the issue of the Warrior vs. Hoplite attack strength and the number of attacks varying from one level to the next can both be solved by changing the Merman Warrior's attack from 8-4 to 10-3.

Of course, this reduces the value of the Merman Warrior slightly, so I would suggest also reducing the XP cost to level from 80 to 75.

This is now my "official" suggestion.

Peet

[megane]

This is now my "official" suggestion.

Seconded

[Noyga]

It seems that both the issue of the Warrior vs. Hoplite attack strength and the number of attacks varying from one level to the next can both be solved by changing the Merman Warrior's attack from 8-4 to 10-3.

It looks that the MP dev commited this change...

[peet]

Huzzah! I feel special.

I guess this thread can be locked, then.

[Thrawn]

lol, I read that, reached for my set of locks, and realized they were powerless here...gonna have to wait for another mod....