Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
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Thanks for the report. However the replay seems corrupt (first time around turn 12). Did you do anything else before this incident occurred (e.g. save and load)?
Anyways, I'll have a look at the xp-draining WML and check if there is some obvious flaw that might cause the bug you experienced.
PS: Heh, 4-digit post count for me
Anyways, I'll have a look at the xp-draining WML and check if there is some obvious flaw that might cause the bug you experienced.
PS: Heh, 4-digit post count for me
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
Hi we recorded that in 1.3.18 yesterday, and I reviewed it just fine before I uploaded it,
but now when I tried to view it it is corrupted.
damn.
Also XP, poison, slow, those all hit everyone around you, your peasants included. Not sure if it affects allys, but probably does because it works on peasants.
Weeksy pointed out that Mountains are unbalanced upgrade, replace it with hills instead. HI and horses cannot move over mountains.
He also points out:
hills, forests, fords, snow and possibly mushrooms as an alternative set.
edit: Heh prime number of posts for me.
but now when I tried to view it it is corrupted.
damn.
Also XP, poison, slow, those all hit everyone around you, your peasants included. Not sure if it affects allys, but probably does because it works on peasants.
Weeksy pointed out that Mountains are unbalanced upgrade, replace it with hills instead. HI and horses cannot move over mountains.
He also points out:
hills, forests, fords, snow and possibly mushrooms as an alternative set.
edit: Heh prime number of posts for me.
That's intended to make the spells more difficult to use.MCP wrote:Also XP, poison, slow, those all hit everyone around you, your peasants included. Not sure if it affects allys, but probably does because it works on peasants.
Good idea, thanks.MCP wrote:Weeksy pointed out that Mountains are unbalanced upgrade, replace it with hills instead. HI and horses cannot move over mountains.
He also points out:
hills, forests, fords, snow and possibly mushrooms as an alternative set.
I was working on the proof of one of my poems all the morning, and took out a comma. In the afternoon I put it back again. -- Oscar Wilde
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
so Zeus and I played another two games against creep upgrades, and something is still wrong.
I banked for 400+ gold, and I still couldn't get enough HP the creeps swarmed us.
Make the hero HP increase to 7.5% instead of 5%, and as opposed to the old one 10% which was pretty much too high. This will help a lot, instead of 160 hp I think I would have had 320 hp, which would be a lot better, but not broken.
I want to change as little as possible, but I had so little hp despite surviving long enough against the creeps.
Also it's really boring to fight only creeps because it's me vs the AI, not me vs them, so this is my motivation that creeps are less strong than heros in the long run, but maybe not the short run.
I banked for 400+ gold, and I still couldn't get enough HP the creeps swarmed us.
Make the hero HP increase to 7.5% instead of 5%, and as opposed to the old one 10% which was pretty much too high. This will help a lot, instead of 160 hp I think I would have had 320 hp, which would be a lot better, but not broken.
I want to change as little as possible, but I had so little hp despite surviving long enough against the creeps.
Also it's really boring to fight only creeps because it's me vs the AI, not me vs them, so this is my motivation that creeps are less strong than heros in the long run, but maybe not the short run.
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Blarumyrran
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Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
MCP, obviously baufo is making the social commentary that governments should use more leftist politics. the heroes symbolise the decadent bourgeoisie, whose role is not cost-efficient (in military/economical terms) as they waste money on pointless luxuries and "culture"; while using resources on armament of the working class (peasants) brings swift victory. it is true that by far most leftist politics rely more on urban working class instead of farmers, i agree, but you must not forget that it is merely a matter of being less concentrated (meaning difficulties in mobilisation) and less oppurtunities for propaganda, while wesnoth (unlike real world) has teleportation, making peasantry-based leftist armies more feasible there. also notice how peasants are "lawful", hinting at the need for a strong central authority and law, as uncentralized leftist movement would turn its agression gradually upon itself rather than external enemies.
you are missing the whole essence of the map here. your thinking never reaches the metalevel of wesnothian setting :/
you are missing the whole essence of the map here. your thinking never reaches the metalevel of wesnothian setting :/
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
Well you know instead of teleportation I recommend the Cannon.
You can fire a hero from it, but many things can go wrong when firing a cannon, such as a wall splat, death by impaling on mountains, or you might have a 'cushioned' landing and kill whatever you land on, friend or foe goblins excluded(? maybe .01% ctk either goblin?).
But then there cannot be a truer or more sophisticated use of a cannon, than to LAUNCH THE YETI.
the Yeti Cannon shall be implemented.
But onto political aspirations, I want to return to a time when the strong lead and the weak served. When duels were common to solve mutual discrepancies.
In a world where between 2 to 6, but no more and no less, heroes meet in an enclosed arena by some un-disclosed method(gods?), they decide to kill each other, but since they all believe in re-incarnation they come back(what if they don't believe?).
Why not make it so the peasants are merely onlookers to the wrath of gods descended upon the earth itself?
You can fire a hero from it, but many things can go wrong when firing a cannon, such as a wall splat, death by impaling on mountains, or you might have a 'cushioned' landing and kill whatever you land on, friend or foe goblins excluded(? maybe .01% ctk either goblin?).
But then there cannot be a truer or more sophisticated use of a cannon, than to LAUNCH THE YETI.
the Yeti Cannon shall be implemented.
But onto political aspirations, I want to return to a time when the strong lead and the weak served. When duels were common to solve mutual discrepancies.
In a world where between 2 to 6, but no more and no less, heroes meet in an enclosed arena by some un-disclosed method(gods?), they decide to kill each other, but since they all believe in re-incarnation they come back(what if they don't believe?).
Why not make it so the peasants are merely onlookers to the wrath of gods descended upon the earth itself?
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
Hey Baufo I was messing around with the numbers,
it doesn't matter 3v3, peasants were stronger than even one skeleton with drain early on.
Even with 10% health + 10, 6 gold per damage, and 38 per strike still.
I set peasants to 22 per damage, 42 per health and I think 38 or 42 per strike. They always pushed the other side back no matter what, and then the economic edge from villages just won.
I was conversing with Zeus on finding a way to counter peasants so they don't just over power the heroes. We came up with a few ways such as a specific anti peasant counter attack for 50 gold, or perhaps a one time hero upgrade to set a damage amount(this one takes a serious amount of thought to balance). Personally I like the peasant counter weapon zeus suggests. It's like a fire shield that can only be used in defense vs peasants(both ranged and melee can be purchased separately), and since it only is used to kill peasants on defense, it can't be overpowered and used to kill heroes.
it doesn't matter 3v3, peasants were stronger than even one skeleton with drain early on.
Even with 10% health + 10, 6 gold per damage, and 38 per strike still.
I set peasants to 22 per damage, 42 per health and I think 38 or 42 per strike. They always pushed the other side back no matter what, and then the economic edge from villages just won.
I was conversing with Zeus on finding a way to counter peasants so they don't just over power the heroes. We came up with a few ways such as a specific anti peasant counter attack for 50 gold, or perhaps a one time hero upgrade to set a damage amount(this one takes a serious amount of thought to balance). Personally I like the peasant counter weapon zeus suggests. It's like a fire shield that can only be used in defense vs peasants(both ranged and melee can be purchased separately), and since it only is used to kill peasants on defense, it can't be overpowered and used to kill heroes.
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
How about this: For a set amount of gold, players can upgrade the maximum number of peasants for their side by two. This gold amount increases by a fairly high percentage (25%?) every time it is purchased.
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
Have u tried to upgrade 1 hero at the very beginning, bank with two others, start upgrade the second arround turn 6 or 7 and bank with the third as long as possible?MCP wrote:Hey Baufo I was messing around with the numbers,
it doesn't matter 3v3, peasants were stronger than even one skeleton with drain early on.
Even with 10% health + 10, 6 gold per damage, and 38 per strike still.
I set peasants to 22 per damage, 42 per health and I think 38 or 42 per strike. They always pushed the other side back no matter what, and then the economic edge from villages just won.
I was conversing with Zeus on finding a way to counter peasants so they don't just over power the heroes. We came up with a few ways such as a specific anti peasant counter attack for 50 gold, or perhaps a one time hero upgrade to set a damage amount(this one takes a serious amount of thought to balance). Personally I like the peasant counter weapon zeus suggests. It's like a fire shield that can only be used in defense vs peasants(both ranged and melee can be purchased separately), and since it only is used to kill peasants on defense, it can't be overpowered and used to kill heroes.
For me this generally works well vs creepupgrading
-- ^ --
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
@weeksy, last thing I want is more upgraded peasants. But if you can buy 'decoys', so extra creeps that are at default values, so the peasant AI are 'distracted'.
One peasant if upgraded by 3 players on side one(left side) will come out stronger than upgrading a hero at the beginning with the current version, with the exception of a few units such as skeleton, wose, spearman, maybe others. But most units are just plain slaughtered, and then even skeletons are taken down by a swarm of 2-4 peasants.
I'm pretty sure in my version one hero can stand up to one peasant, but then as long as they don't choose to upgrade creep damage to your hero's natural strength, there is little chance you'll be dropping enough peasants and you will get swarmed in a village or something.
So in the end one gets pushed back.
So then you suggest one hero does this, gets killed(they get +75) or possibly gets away and your other two heroes are now on turn 7-8 and they upgrade.
So lets count the banking scheme, assuming they get one village and run. Assuming you have a fast enough(visit town and get a village on first day), and best case is you can hold the village to say turn 7 when your first hero retreats, assuming it doesn't die outright.
My middle hero is a skeleton archer, upgraded him a bit, 56 health, 19-3 attacks on turn two after banking turn one.
On turn seven my wolf had 251 gold, my gryphon has 258.
They happen to have a wose so my skeleton archer is useless against it, and it stole all the remaining villages while my skeleton fought off the peasants.
On turn eight I spent all my gold on the wolf, 132 max hp, 21-3 drain ranged since they are ranged peasants.
My gryphon is still banking on turn eight.
My wolf is killed by creeps 13-6 woodsmen 37 hp, 13-4 peasants 35 hp, by this time the other side had gone back and two of their heros spent all their gold to upgrade creeps +3 damage +1strike/health.
On turn 9, wose has 313 gold on side One, and gryphon has 330 gold on side Two. Side two is bankrupt otherwise, but side two each of them has about 80-100 gold.
On turn 10 wose has 376 and is banking one more turn to be able to buy +42 strike/health upgrades every turn for the creeps, the other two will buy damage when they get to 220 gold. Wolf and skeleton are now able to kill peasants on counter and stole back two villages.
Eventually the wolf and skeleton became too strong, although they would die, everytime they would come back stronger and stronger and the peasants cannot keep up with their HP.
Gryphon gated in.
Moral of the story:
Probably only a skeleton archer could do this with ranged peasants but they can just choose melee peasants...
One peasant if upgraded by 3 players on side one(left side) will come out stronger than upgrading a hero at the beginning with the current version, with the exception of a few units such as skeleton, wose, spearman, maybe others. But most units are just plain slaughtered, and then even skeletons are taken down by a swarm of 2-4 peasants.
I'm pretty sure in my version one hero can stand up to one peasant, but then as long as they don't choose to upgrade creep damage to your hero's natural strength, there is little chance you'll be dropping enough peasants and you will get swarmed in a village or something.
So in the end one gets pushed back.
So then you suggest one hero does this, gets killed(they get +75) or possibly gets away and your other two heroes are now on turn 7-8 and they upgrade.
So lets count the banking scheme, assuming they get one village and run. Assuming you have a fast enough(visit town and get a village on first day), and best case is you can hold the village to say turn 7 when your first hero retreats, assuming it doesn't die outright.
My middle hero is a skeleton archer, upgraded him a bit, 56 health, 19-3 attacks on turn two after banking turn one.
On turn seven my wolf had 251 gold, my gryphon has 258.
They happen to have a wose so my skeleton archer is useless against it, and it stole all the remaining villages while my skeleton fought off the peasants.
On turn eight I spent all my gold on the wolf, 132 max hp, 21-3 drain ranged since they are ranged peasants.
My gryphon is still banking on turn eight.
My wolf is killed by creeps 13-6 woodsmen 37 hp, 13-4 peasants 35 hp, by this time the other side had gone back and two of their heros spent all their gold to upgrade creeps +3 damage +1strike/health.
On turn 9, wose has 313 gold on side One, and gryphon has 330 gold on side Two. Side two is bankrupt otherwise, but side two each of them has about 80-100 gold.
On turn 10 wose has 376 and is banking one more turn to be able to buy +42 strike/health upgrades every turn for the creeps, the other two will buy damage when they get to 220 gold. Wolf and skeleton are now able to kill peasants on counter and stole back two villages.
Eventually the wolf and skeleton became too strong, although they would die, everytime they would come back stronger and stronger and the peasants cannot keep up with their HP.
Gryphon gated in.
Moral of the story:
Probably only a skeleton archer could do this with ranged peasants but they can just choose melee peasants...
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
I've changed the cost and damages of the peasants:
Woodsman are now 4-1 5-2 the reciprocal of the peasant which is 5-2 4-1.
It costs 22 to upgrade damage and 42 to upgrade health or strikes.
Hero damage is 6, hero strikes is 38, hero health bonus is at 10% + 10.
It's better, but still not enough. This is a direct edit of 2.2c. My next idea is to fiddle with banking.
Also I've changed the era, all the random selections will choose from any available hero. Before some races would exclude some choices in random that are available by manual selection.
Woodsman are now 4-1 5-2 the reciprocal of the peasant which is 5-2 4-1.
It costs 22 to upgrade damage and 42 to upgrade health or strikes.
Hero damage is 6, hero strikes is 38, hero health bonus is at 10% + 10.
It's better, but still not enough. This is a direct edit of 2.2c. My next idea is to fiddle with banking.
Also I've changed the era, all the random selections will choose from any available hero. Before some races would exclude some choices in random that are available by manual selection.
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
Perhaps your mod could get its own thread?
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
Not until Zeus and I implement a yeti cannon.Weeksy wrote:Perhaps your mod could get its own thread?
When the yeti cannon is complete the game will be worthy. Right now I'm just balancing DotG
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
It might be a little dificult but can someone create a DotG compatible AI??? 
Oh and also I was playing with the common Wesnoth AI and when some of the computer players step on a shop hex it pop out a catalogue and I had to choose what to buy him.
Oh and also I was playing with the common Wesnoth AI and when some of the computer players step on a shop hex it pop out a catalogue and I had to choose what to buy him.
Re: Defense of the Goblin II - A new version, a new world!
somebody probably could, but that would probably be incredibly boring as the AI isn't able to adapt well.
Dotg is all about fighting the human at the other end, figuring them out, and beating them.
That's why I'm trying my best to balance out peasants vs heroes.
Dotg is all about fighting the human at the other end, figuring them out, and beating them.
That's why I'm trying my best to balance out peasants vs heroes.