Problem, Bats right now are too good.

JW · Post by JW » February 7th, 2008, 2:27 am

Nebiros wrote:The glider can do all the same things, has ZoC, is significantly harder to kill and only slightly more expensive. Why aren't we discussing how "overpowered" it is?

Because it has 30-40% defense on all terrains and has poor Cold and Pierce resistancies.

And it has upkeep.

The reduction of the bat's village defense should solve all problems. Well done on the change.

nataS · Post by **nataS** » February 7th, 2008, 7:34 am

They cost 13 gold, and don't even have plague.. I say they should be like true vampires and turn the enemy into a bat once they bite.

Haibane · Post by **Haibane** » February 8th, 2008, 8:03 am

UngeheuerLich wrote:its just fair that the bat can kill the ulf. ulfs are really strong vs undead (adept killers without any risk)

Not really sure about such fairness, as ulfs are really weak against skeletons. I would say it compensates adept's weakness quite nice, as both skeleton and adept are cheaper than ulf. But considering whole picture, it might be fine anyway.

UngeheuerLich · Post by **UngeheuerLich** » February 14th, 2008, 10:07 pm

UngeheuerLich wrote: making bat 40% on villages actually doesnÂ´t sound that bad. although maybe they should retain 60% on cave and water villages. to emphasize their use on those terrains. on normal land however the change seems appropriate.

ok, actually thats how they work, because water villages are village(village,water) d'oh!

UngeheuerLich · Post by **UngeheuerLich** » February 14th, 2008, 10:17 pm

Haibane wrote:
UngeheuerLich wrote:its just fair that the bat can kill the ulf. ulfs are really strong vs undead (adept killers without any risk)
Not really sure about such fairness, as ulfs are really weak against skeletons. I would say it compensates adept's weakness quite nice, as both skeleton and adept are cheaper than ulf. But considering whole picture, it might be fine anyway.

Bats killing Ulfserkers is really exaggerated. Bats usually donÂ´t kill ulfs. Even 3 bats donÂ´t kill a full hp ulf.

Post by **Thrawn** » February 15th, 2008, 3:19 am

UngeheuerLich wrote:
Haibane wrote: Not really sure about such fairness, as ulfs are really weak against skeletons. I would say it compensates adept's weakness quite nice, as both skeleton and adept are cheaper than ulf. But considering whole picture, it might be fine anyway.
Bats killing Ulfserkers is really exaggerated. Bats usually donÂ´t kill ulfs. Even 3 bats donÂ´t kill a full hp ulf.

I've seen a full ulf lose to a bat...

it was dusk, not day, but still<_<

UngeheuerLich · Post by **UngeheuerLich** » February 15th, 2008, 1:14 pm

Thrawn wrote: I've seen a full ulf lose to a bat... it was dusk, not day, but still<_<

i have seen stranger things than that... but 4-6 hits from an ulf kill a bat and you attack 4 times (with 40% to hit) while a bat attack only twice a "round" with about 70% to hit.

So in 2 "rounds" a bat hits about 3 times dealing 12 damage and regenrating 6 hp at most. A ulfserker hits about 3 hits doing 12 or 15 points of damage. 6 rounds, and the bat is dead, and the ulf is nearly dead.

But: this is the best case for the bat. If the ulf gets a "streak" hitting 3 times while not beeing hit, the bat is dead earlier... and this is not that rare...

Weeksy · Post by **Weeksy** » February 15th, 2008, 6:42 pm

It is very very possible for a resilient strong bat to be able to kill an ulf at night, between 60.4 and 25% to kill an ulf on grass, depending on traits.

Darth Jordius · Post by **Darth Jordius** » February 15th, 2008, 9:21 pm

Weeksy wrote:It is very very possible for a resilient strong bat to be able to kill an ulf at night, between 60.4 and 25% to kill an ulf on grass, depending on traits.

Yes, any strong, resilient bat at First or Second watch can beat a fast intelligent ulfserker. How powerful the bat is.

I think just lowering the village defense really solved the power problem for the bat

Edit: Fixed spelling error...I'm a perfectionist.

Weeksy · Post by **Weeksy** » February 16th, 2008, 12:18 am

that 25% is for a strong resilient ulf.

Darth Jordius · Post by **Darth Jordius** » February 16th, 2008, 12:29 am

Weeksy wrote:that 25% is for a strong resilient ulf.

Really? What about the stats for normal bat and ulfserker? That'd be a little different.

Weeksy · Post by **Weeksy** » February 16th, 2008, 8:52 am

normal? What is normal? No traits? It's hard to get no traits in normal MP play. I'd dug up various stats a night ago, but my method of saving seemed to give me a blank document, so I'll have to redo them. Tell me what 'normal' is and I'll try to put that in.

UngeheuerLich · Post by **UngeheuerLich** » February 16th, 2008, 2:17 pm

still, 25% if you put your dwarf on bad terrain on night is not that great... and if you lose, you usuall donÂ´t leave the ulf with low hp, but its very likely that it has still many hp left...

Kens_Mom · Post by **Kens_Mom** » February 16th, 2008, 6:00 pm

Why is everyone comparing a bat to an ulf? I think people are forgetting something very important here.

An ulf has horrible stats for its cost. Its only saving grace is that it has berserk, which is a double edged sword, and makes the unit very situational.

It's not supposed to attack units with a primary melee attack. At least not healthy ones. And if a melee unit attacks my ulf, I would expect my ulf to die, even on good terrain. Though admittedly, I wouldn't expect this from a mere lvl 0 unit, this is a special case. The bat as a drain attack, which is especially effective against low-def berserkers like ulfs. And the bat costs 13 gold, which is pretty expensive for a lvl 0.

So saying that a bat can kill an ulf is like saying that an ulf can kill a DA. Healthy melee units are supposed to counter ulfs (cost wise).

Stop picking on the ulf.

joshudson · Post by **joshudson** » February 18th, 2008, 7:20 pm

What separates this from other cases is a bat is very fast.