Problem, Bats right now are too good.

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Fosprey
Posts: 254
Joined: January 25th, 2008, 8:13 am

Problem, Bats right now are too good.

Post by Fosprey »

I was trying to compile a group of replays playing undead where it can be shown that bats are too good. I have troubles doing it since finding good players it´s hard for me. I beat most players i found only doing a mass bat and then overhelming with sueperior economy, this is super true in Cynasun battlefield. This can be stoped anyway(not in cynasun battlefield). But still bats are a too good unit. And most good players i find AGREE with it, so most of the times there is no point in playing to prove it, but instead i prefer to play another more interesting matchup.
Basically what i´m saying is that i will state some stuff of what i think of bats. I don`t think i need to prove anything since i think most good players around think the same. But if surprisingly i find many people that object this fact, i will try to get some replays where both players are good to prove this. (I already have tons of replays of bats dominating not soo good players )

So. Bats are too good unit right now because they can put a lot of pressure on villages. They can have two or even 3 village at once at range while outside the range of enemy units or in the range of only one enemy unit. 8 MP + 1 mp/ANY TERRAIN.
Once in the village with 60 defense (note that most fast units have less defense on village, in fact they have particulary low defense on villages) they are hard to take on, they don´t have many vulnerabilites, melee units have a specially hard time to take them off at night, and can even suffer some damage in the process. This means you need to weaken your front line to take them off, bats can even retreat very easy once things look bad, or the enemy front line isn´t in trouble.
It´s also good to note that they don't reward almost XP, so losing them i´s a big deal in terms of XP. They won't even get XP for trying to kill it (and your bats will, it's pretty common for a bat to make 5 or 6 xp in defense, flee, and then comeback with a kill and level up)
The power to put such a pressure with 13 gold and no upkeep (of course a lot of vision to it) it´s the real problem.
I don`t even want to say how powerfull they are in big maps. This unit alone make any big map balance a headhache.

There are two possible solutions.
1. Make it easier to kill!, Specially on village. Maybe taking 2 hp, or 3 would help or lowering reistances, or lowering it´s defense in village to 40.
Consdiering big maps(aka cynasun battlefield) It would be good if they were specially easy to kill for the scouts of each side (it means giving resistances low of those of the scouts and/or reducing the village defense is a good way)

2. Give them upkeep. You could give bats upkeep, You could make them level 1 and give them a non-zoc trait, or give them a trait that gives them upkeep.
This solution automatically solves the big map balance and in every other map, BUT i know that it can be against the feeling devs want to give to bats.
Maybe a solution would be to get rid of bats and give undead another scout.
i`m not good in giving that kind of ideas.

Sorry for my pretty bad english.

PD: I was thinking about the upkeep solution. With the new bat sprites, i think they look pretty big and nice. You could rename them Giant bats, or something, with the old sprite i think they would look to small and irrelevant to be a level 1 unit, but now i think the sprites could reflect better they are a level 1 unit. Just a thought
Last edited by Fosprey on February 6th, 2008, 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mist
Inactive Developer
Posts: 753
Joined: February 15th, 2007, 8:44 am
Location: Milton Keynes, UK

Post by Mist »

Are you talking about 1.3.14 or 1.3.15? If it's the former then the issue doesn't exist any more as they have been nerfed in between.
Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep.
Disorder.
Fosprey
Posts: 254
Joined: January 25th, 2008, 8:13 am

Post by Fosprey »

As far as i know bats haven`t recieved any change in 1.3.15, i played most games i see this in 1.3.14, But today i played a few games in 1.3.15 and didn`t note they were nerfed.

IN changelogs the last change was in 14 where bats lost a single point of hp and increased XP, wich were fine, but not enough. In my opinion and the opinion of other players, it would be nice of some good players out there posted their opinions.
Darth Jordius
Posts: 399
Joined: September 17th, 2007, 4:53 pm
Location: 2 miles southeast of the Middle of Nowhere

Re: Problem, Bats right now are too good.

Post by Darth Jordius »

Post no longer relevant.
Last edited by Darth Jordius on February 7th, 2008, 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quiz wrote:You are a Dwarvish Fighter. You're surly and handy with an axe. Go chop some trees.
Check out Quietus's Minotaurs!
User avatar
Jami
Posts: 149
Joined: March 15th, 2007, 4:00 am

Re: Problem, Bats right now are too good.

Post by Jami »

Darth Jordius wrote:Look, bats have just undergone a major transformation, and I doubt the devs want to change them again so soon. Just a month ago people like me were whining about the bat being too weak. They aren't Undead anymore, so they lost their poison immunity and also they can be drained by Undead. If you can seriously be beaten by bat spam, I suggest jumping off a cliff. They are quite easy to kill, unless you are attacking them with a cold melee attack...

If any changes get made to the bat, I suppose it will be the addition of a fiery berserking attack.
He isn't talking about pure bat spam in his post though, or about the sheer combat prowess of a bat (which has never been exceptional). He is talking about the use of Bats on large maps where their contribution to income is exceptionally big, especially if used as village grabbers in the first few rounds of a game.

On the premise that recently changed units should recieve the most scruitiny, I feel that especially the bat (and the DA) should be observed carefully for a long time to enshure that the changes to the unit does not overpower a faction in any circumstance.
Soliton
Site Administrator
Posts: 1638
Joined: April 5th, 2005, 3:25 pm
Location: #wesnoth-mp

Re: Problem, Bats right now are too good.

Post by Soliton »

Fosprey wrote:There are two possible solutions.
1. Make it easier to kill!, Specially on village. Maybe taking 2 hp, or 3 would help or lowering reistances, or lowering it´s defense in village to 40.
Consdiering big maps(aka cynasun battlefield) It would be good if they were specially easy to kill for the scouts of each side (it means giving resistances low of those of the scouts and/or reducing the village defense is a good way)

2. Give them upkeep. You could give bats upkeep, You could make them level 1 and give them a non-zoc trait, or give them a trait that gives them upkeep.
This solution automatically solves the big map balance and in every other map, BUT i know that it can be against the feeling devs want to give to bats.
Maybe a solution would be to get rid of bats and give undead another scout.
i`m not good in giving that kind of ideas.
I think those ideas are quite good. It is certainly true that balance on big maps is difficult to achieve especially considering bats and I suppose we should try to remedy that (without losing too much flavour).


PS: Darth Jordius, pretty please stay in Off-Topic or some other forum I don't read, thanks.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
Noy
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1321
Joined: March 13th, 2005, 3:59 pm

Post by Noy »

Fosprey

One thing you have to remember is how the Bat has tilted between under and overpowered for the reasons why Jami pointed out. At one point it was easy for an undead player to buy a couple of bats, and take over half the map (and incidentally buy only Walking corpses too) and win assuredly. Thats why the unit was toned down originally. then we recently upgraded it... but without reminding ourselves of the consequences of upgrading it. I think we've found a better balance now with the change we just made (this evening.)
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

Don Hewitt.
User avatar
Noyga
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1790
Joined: September 26th, 2005, 5:56 pm
Location: France

Post by Noyga »

It looks they have been nerfed, they now (trunk) have 40% defense in villages.
Last edited by Noyga on February 6th, 2008, 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Ooh, man, my mage had a 30% chance to miss, but he still managed to hit! Awesome!" ;) -- xtifr
CIB
Code Contributor
Posts: 625
Joined: November 24th, 2006, 11:26 pm

Post by CIB »

Did I mention already that the edit button is way too close to the quote button on other people's posts? I was like "wtf?" when I saw that my post was under Noyga's name =)
Noyga wrote:It looks they have been nerfed, they now (trunk) have 40% defense in villages.
I think people should start to realize that you can not balance one era for any map..
User avatar
governor
Posts: 267
Joined: December 8th, 2006, 12:32 am

Post by governor »

CIB wrote:I think people should start to realize that you can not balance one era for any map..
As a general rule I agree, the map should be balanced for all the factions in an era. However, this particular case indicates a weakness in the era's balance and not necessarily any particular map.
joshudson
Posts: 501
Joined: January 17th, 2006, 8:04 pm
Contact:

Post by joshudson »

I think they're overpowered for another reason. There 60% evasion makes them far too likely to kill an ulf.

At least the XP requirement boost will put an end to what I most feared: two bats are almost guaranteed to kill an ulf, but now the second one won't level on sight.
CHKDSK has repaired bad sectors in CHKDSK.EXE
UngeheuerLich
Posts: 319
Joined: February 22nd, 2006, 1:10 pm

Post by UngeheuerLich »

its just fair that the bat can kill the ulf. ulfs are really strong vs undead (adept killers without any risk)

making bat 40% on villages actually doesn´t sound that bad. although maybe they should retain 60% on cave and water villages. to emphasize their use on those terrains. on normal land however the change seems appropriate.

edit: just downloaded 1.1.15a couldn´t. bats still have 60% everywhere.
Fosprey
Posts: 254
Joined: January 25th, 2008, 8:13 am

Post by Fosprey »

To clarify.
I didn't say i beat GOOD players with it, i say beat MOST PLAYERS with it.
Those few good, COULD STOP IT. Still bats were crucial to my wins.

I felt the sameway, i felt you insulted my opponents. I beated A LOT of opponents, Just spamming bats. i recruited something like 10 bats, and after they took control i launched a main assault with the superior economy.
I don't think they are [censored] or that they should jump a cliff or something, is a strategy that can beat (and did beat) quite a few people if they don't expect it.
Darth Jordius
Posts: 399
Joined: September 17th, 2007, 4:53 pm
Location: 2 miles southeast of the Middle of Nowhere

Post by Darth Jordius »

Fosprey wrote:To clarify.
I didn't say i beat GOOD players with it, i say beat MOST PLAYERS with it.
Those few good, COULD STOP IT. Still bats were crucial to my wins.

I felt the sameway, i felt you insulted my opponents. I beated A LOT of opponents, Just spamming bats. i recruited something like 10 bats, and after they took control i launched a main assault with the superior economy.
I don't think they are [censored] or that they should jump a cliff or something, is a strategy that can beat (and did beat) quite a few people if they don't expect it.
Well I'm sorry if you feel that way, I didn't mean to insult anyone. Now I have to admit another thing, reading your original post you didn't say you beat good players. My fault. :( I completely misread that part of your post, so please disregard what I said regarding that.
Quiz wrote:You are a Dwarvish Fighter. You're surly and handy with an axe. Go chop some trees.
Check out Quietus's Minotaurs!
Nebiros
Posts: 86
Joined: July 24th, 2007, 5:20 pm
Location: Charlottesville, VA, USA

Post by Nebiros »

joshudson wrote:I think they're overpowered for another reason. There 60% evasion makes them far too likely to kill an ulf.

At least the XP requirement boost will put an end to what I most feared: two bats are almost guaranteed to kill an ulf, but now the second one won't level on sight.
Two bats cost more than an ulf, unless you've been paying upkeep on him for more than 7 turns. The ulf is weak against melee units; the bat is a melee unit (albeit a level 0 and weak one).


Generalizing from Cynsaun, or from players who can't deal with a heavy village-grabbing strategy, strikes me as a bad idea. Village grabbing can be countered by sitting in your villages, or by ZoCing the offenders and killing them before they steal enough income to make up for their loss, or by going for the throat (leader) while the enemy's force is dispersed all over the map. I have found one or maybe two bats to be useful, and more than that to be too easily countered by units that also have other uses besides bat-killing. Furthermore, I think that raiding is an important part of the game and I wouldn't like to see it become too ineffective; undead have no other unit that they can really use for it in most matchups (raiding with a ghost is usually too risky because of its high cost and severe vulnerabilities).

The glider can do all the same things, has ZoC, is significantly harder to kill and only slightly more expensive. Why aren't we discussing how "overpowered" it is?
Post Reply