[Complete] Tournament of Champions 3: Results, Hype, Predictions, etc.

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ereksos
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:P

Post by ereksos »

another week has passed and bec is still MIA.
ok, it is time for the organizer to decide.
or doc pat, shall we fight? :)

attached is my saved game vs bec in the first game.
from my memory, i was leading with 9-4 kill ratio.
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Doc Paterson
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Re: :P

Post by Doc Paterson »

ereksos wrote:another week has passed and bec is still MIA.
ok, it is time for the organizer to decide.
or doc pat, shall we fight? :)

attached is my saved game vs bec in the first game.
from my memory, i was leading with 9-4 kill ratio.
This whole situation is pretty awful, and I've been going back and forth as to what the best solution is.

On the bright side, this is a learning experience, and, as it's an issue that hasn't yet arisen in a TOC, will initiate a more detailed and precise set of rules that will prevent it from happening again.

Regardless, sorry that I haven't made a ruling on this yet- things have been very busy lately, and I want to give the decision the right amount of thought.

I'll try to have an answer by or before the end of tomorrow.

Any suggestions that do not involve the insertion of players who didn't actually enter the tournament are welcome.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

So.....

It seems that we have an impossible situation here. On the one hand, I don't think that it's particularly sporting to be taking 45 minute turns, no matter what the situation. There are limits to what someone should have to sacrifice to play a match, and I think that most everyone would agree that the progression of that first game crossed the line. Ultimately though, the delay and frustration that this caused doesn't really even come close to the inconvenience that ereksos experienced, repeatedly changing his real life plans to make time for matches that didn't happen, again and again. To be clear, I am not criticizing anyone here- I am not blaming the players. What happened wasn't well defined by the framework of the rules (outside of the basic fact that ereksos could have just forced a forfeit), and ultimately, that is more my fault than anyone's. When all was said and done, it does look like ereksos would probably have won that first match, and that Bec wouldn't have had time in his schedule to finish the series regardless, long turns or no.

Inserting a player (like me, or palloco or anyone) who didn't earn their place in the finals would be ridiculous, and would undermine the entire framework of the tournament.

At this point, I need to declare ereksos the winner of TOC3, and place Bec in second place.

The next tournament will have a 15-minute time limit on each turn. I can't imagine this being a problem for most players. Any potential game-altering afk issues can be resolved by saving and reloading.

So anyways, there you have it.

Congratulations to ereksos. In spite of whatever controversy may linger about the series with Bec, his play was undeniably spectacular, and he beat some great players.

Keep your eyes peeled for a new dino in The Hall.
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ereksos
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game

Post by ereksos »

dear all,

I was hoping to use that as an excuse to force doc paterson to play the game seriously in TOC, :), 15minutes per turn is fine with me.
For the long turn, I was just trying to play to my best, admittedly, i was also cooking at the same time, but it is not the reason for my 3 long turns. :P.

while i don't claim to be the best in wesnoth, there is something i need to say about the 1-1 multiplayer game, in order to make itmore interesting. those who followed my game should see a clear and distinct style in all my game play.
DEFENCE.
due to the heavy luck element, i hardly press an attack unless my opponent made a mistake.

60% defence + 8hp healing in the village makes a unit pretty durable. an unlucky attack on that unit could results in huge disadvantage.
so i rather have my opponent to role the dice and lead the attack.
even if the opponent is lucky, careful and well placed defenders near my own castle can offset that lucky attack.
The same cannot be said for the unlucky attacker who is far from his own castle and hence results in bad logistic for his/her reinforcement.

Surely, this is just a tip of the iceberg for strategy game, but it is very critical because it impedes interesting game and gives advantage to the defender.
I would recommend that all units defence in the village to be reduce by 10%. so that a unit of 60% in a village is to be changed to 50%. this will probably allow for more early attacks and more aggressive strategies.

in addition, regarding the issue of time per turn.
in a chess game, you will probably have many more pieces than a normal wesnoth game. on the other hand, in a chess game, you only move one piece at a time. while in wesnoth, you get to move all the pieces for every one turn. imagine the case where each opponent has 19 units, in an all out attack or defence, to think just 2 steps in advance for all units will take an incredible amount of time due to the large number of possible move that each unit can takes. if you don't believe me you can try this your self, and see if you can do this in 60mins :P.
granted, wesnoth is not chess, wesnoth is probably meant to be more casual than chess, but to play wesnoth really carefully and to think through the overall strategy as well as each individual step requires a lot of time and deep thinking.

i will be leaving wesnoth now, thanks the devs for the game and fellow players for the friendship and companionship. i will be back someday :D.

best wishes,
ereksos
EREKSOS
waterd103
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Post by waterd103 »

The fact that the winner of the tournament, and it seems he is a great player also states defense is too good. Maybe something will be done about it?
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Post by Noy »

...sigh

Here's your answer
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 352#261352
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 997#239997

And please don't respond in this thread, its not for discussing luck... and I'd urge you not to respond at all given its an argument thats been largely discredited.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.

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waterd103
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Post by waterd103 »

i mean, how can you call an argument largely discredited when it has been accepted for one player that seems to be one of the best around?
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Post by Velensk »

Everyone acknolages that defence has advantages and that wesnoth for the most part plays the infantry style of warfare (the exception being the drakes). A hard fact I've found is that if you play defensively and the result is that you find yourself facein a loyalist army with 2-3 mages, and a large number of spearmen and cavalryman within reach of your villages by dawn, then your defence with have a hard time surviving, the same applies to undead with adepts and skelotons at dusk. If your enemy is agressive without properly preparing for it then yes it's easy to play defence and beat them, however it is possible to device an offence where if you stay and protect your villages you are olny going to die.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

waterd103 wrote:i mean, how can you call an argument largely discredited when it has been accepted for one player that seems to be one of the best around?
Read your own post, and think about it.
waterd wrote:when it has been accepted for one player
waterd wrote: seems to be one of the best

Use the ******* search button.

Stop reviving dead threads.

Now, listen carefully: One player believing that a particular style is superior to all styles does not make it true. Surely, I don't have to explain this logic to you.

The first tournament was won by a player who showed a solid balance of defensive and offensive play. In the second tournament, a more offense-oriented player won, beating someone who is probably, on the whole, our greatest defensive player ever (Pietro) in the finals. In the third tournament, the winner of the first tournanent was eliminated in the semifinals by a mostly offensive style. Not to take anything away from ereksos (he's a great player), but many of his defense oriented wins against really good players were against Drakes while he was Loys. This was pre saurian and clasher changes, and was more challenging for the Drake player than it is now. He did well in that tournament because he has good close-quarters tactics, not because he discovered some hidden secret that defending PWNZ ALL.

At any rate,

if you want to experience firsthand getting flattened by a strong offense, please sign up for TOC 4.

(I'm going to make the announcement sometime in the next week or two.)
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
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Post by Cackfiend »

:)
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

Locked then ...
(of course this thread can be unlocked before the next tournament begins)
"Ooh, man, my mage had a 30% chance to miss, but he still managed to hit! Awesome!" ;) -- xtifr
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