Naga cold weakness
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I'd like to see the adept hold the water village for extended periods of time against either a merman or naga... I'd already call it a victory to be able to keep a 16 gold hard-hitting unit busy chasing around a 14 gold utility unit... also, assuming that area is isolated, unless the adept is quick the naga can go back and forth between the swamp village and water village without being reached if the adept is on either of the villages... in general, I wouldn't send the adept alone because my adepts don't hit more than once anyway... 
I would suggest not using a 3p map to make balancing suggestions. Use a 1v1 or 2v2 map to come up with a viable scenario.Shiver wrote:In short, it is almost impossible for Northerners to hold one of the outer island villages on Island of Horatii against an Undead opponent. If you place anything other than a naga on one of these underwater villages, that unit gets 20% defense and is just begging to be killed.
Let me put it this way: there is a reason there have been no 1v1v1 tournaments.
That's irrelevant, really. I used a 3 player map so I could show a merman and naga under attack at the same time. Any map that has a submerged village adjacent to a land tile will lend itself to that same situation. Going from memory, I know that Hornshark Island has a lot of these. This is a shame because it's one of my favorite maps. That particular terrain setup is not too common, but similar problems arise in any game with submerged villages simply because it forces a Northerner player to use nagas against Undead when they're better off not having them at all.JW wrote:I would suggest not using a 3p map to make balancing suggestions. Use a 1v1 or 2v2 map to come up with a viable scenario.
Let me put it this way: there is a reason there have been no 1v1v1 tournaments.
This topic was not initially intended as a balancing suggestion, but became one in absence of any serious justification for the cold penalty.
ok, I'll see your bat or ghost and raise you a troll or orc archer and goblin, as long as we're disregardingnebula955 wrote:umm no? that's just blatantly wrong?
i put my naga there and of course i'd have a bat or ghost behind my adept. if you don't go away i kill you. if you do go away i get +3g per turn and you get -3g per turn, with my ghost on that vil and my adept can then leave.
... otherwise, it's your adept in water vs. my naga in water if you want my village so badly... either way your adept is probably more needed in the center than my naga, where my troll/archer horde is smashing through your legion of bones...Shiver wrote:A dark adept is sent to attack it alone.
Let's try and figure out what Caeb is carrying on about. I think he's saying if you move the naga off the submerged village, the dark adept has to step on that tile and get killed by the naga. In a real game the Undead player should use a bat or ghost to claim that tile, but let's run with this for a second.
Let's say the naga moves off the tile and the dark adept does in fact step on the water village afterward.
The naga returns and attacks the adept. He's a little lucky, so he hits for a full 16 damage.
The dark adept heals 8 of the 16 damage from being on the village and retaliates with Chill Wave. The attack only hits once, but the damage puts the naga down at 23/38 HP. The exchange continues as follows:
*Night turns to dawn.
*Naga attacks dark adept. It hits all four times for 16 damage again. Dark Adept is at 7/31 HP.
*Dark adept heals back 8 health. Dark adept is at 15/31 HP.
*Dark adept attacks naga. This time Chill Wave hits twice for 24 damage, killing the naga.
If the exchange had occured starting at dawn, the naga would have a much better chance of winning. Can the naga beat a dark adept on a submerged village if the fight starts at night? Yes, but it would be an extremely rare occurance that would involve the dark adept missing over and over. And this is why I hate the naga's cold weakness.
Let's say the naga moves off the tile and the dark adept does in fact step on the water village afterward.
The naga returns and attacks the adept. He's a little lucky, so he hits for a full 16 damage.
The dark adept heals 8 of the 16 damage from being on the village and retaliates with Chill Wave. The attack only hits once, but the damage puts the naga down at 23/38 HP. The exchange continues as follows:
*Night turns to dawn.
*Naga attacks dark adept. It hits all four times for 16 damage again. Dark Adept is at 7/31 HP.
*Dark adept heals back 8 health. Dark adept is at 15/31 HP.
*Dark adept attacks naga. This time Chill Wave hits twice for 24 damage, killing the naga.
If the exchange had occured starting at dawn, the naga would have a much better chance of winning. Can the naga beat a dark adept on a submerged village if the fight starts at night? Yes, but it would be an extremely rare occurance that would involve the dark adept missing over and over. And this is why I hate the naga's cold weakness.
so many factors to look at, aren't there...? if the naga had been strong and if the adept had not been resilient, or if the naga weren't resilient and the adept weren't quick... either way, traits do add a bit of variance to each battle, although I suppose if you were really meticulous you could calculate the percentages to see who has the overall advantage... (I wouldn't bother...)
basically, this is a single, specific match-up for a single, specific map situation among numerous elements in a Northie/UD game... they say units are balanced among factions instead of between one another, so maybe after all the numbers are crunched, we'll see that yes, UD does have some advantage when it attempts to take a water village from a naga with an adept... however, this is one skirmish in the midst of a much larger conflict, and I can't really see most games in Horatii or Hornshark centering on or being decided by the battle for supremacy for just the outer water villages... (and even if they were, that's more of a map balance issue...)
unless this is a problem that significantly and consistently tips the scales in favor of one faction over another, which I don't think it is since UD would more likely send a bat or ghost to outer submerged villages than an adept, I don't see a pressing need for a change, but wouldn't be against one if it were made... (those villages in Horatii are closer to the keeps than in Hornshark, I think, but again, I'd be satisfied as Northerners if I could divert adepts away from the central battle using nagas on the outside as bait on either map...)
personally, I don't mind UD having some inherent match-up advantages to offset their horrid landspeed, although the initiative gained by forcing your opponent to adjust to you is already nice... (skeletal high resists are negated by low resists...)
basically, this is a single, specific match-up for a single, specific map situation among numerous elements in a Northie/UD game... they say units are balanced among factions instead of between one another, so maybe after all the numbers are crunched, we'll see that yes, UD does have some advantage when it attempts to take a water village from a naga with an adept... however, this is one skirmish in the midst of a much larger conflict, and I can't really see most games in Horatii or Hornshark centering on or being decided by the battle for supremacy for just the outer water villages... (and even if they were, that's more of a map balance issue...)
unless this is a problem that significantly and consistently tips the scales in favor of one faction over another, which I don't think it is since UD would more likely send a bat or ghost to outer submerged villages than an adept, I don't see a pressing need for a change, but wouldn't be against one if it were made... (those villages in Horatii are closer to the keeps than in Hornshark, I think, but again, I'd be satisfied as Northerners if I could divert adepts away from the central battle using nagas on the outside as bait on either map...)
personally, I don't mind UD having some inherent match-up advantages to offset their horrid landspeed, although the initiative gained by forcing your opponent to adjust to you is already nice... (skeletal high resists are negated by low resists...)
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Doc Paterson
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Good God.
Yes, it's ridiculous to use an FFA as an example for any kind of faction-to-faction comparison, for obvious reasons.
What exactly is this Horatii example supposed to suggest? That Northerners are disadvantaged against an Undead opponent when the third player is doing nothing but sitting in their keep? Even if that map were just a terribly balanced 1v1, Northerners can tag those villages with nagas, leave, and then wait for Undead to try to retag it. It's adjacent to the land as you said, and any Undead unit that retakes it is very likely to die (particularly ghosts, which Northerners have a very, very easy time with). You seem to make the silly assumption that the adept is somehow supported by other units which will shield it from the melee heavy northerner army, and that the Naga is on some sort of solo mission.
In fact, it would seem that your entire argument rests on this one-adept vs. one-naga scenario. That is a completely artificial construct. In reality, any adept that stepped into the water would die a very quick, one-turn death at the hands of a grunt or troll (probably being finished by the naga. ), and, particularly on Hornshark, the more mobile northerner army is much more likely to be able to focus more units in any one given location.
Regarding Hornshark, I honestly can't imagine any real argument for Undead being overpowered against the more mobile Northerners there. I'd love to see you beating a decent Northerner opponent in the manner you imagined, on that map. It's completely unrealistic from a mobility-oriented/economic/tactical standpoint.
* * * * *
Incidentally, while I think that you're completely wrong here, I do strongly approve of the use of screenshots.
Yes, it's ridiculous to use an FFA as an example for any kind of faction-to-faction comparison, for obvious reasons.
What exactly is this Horatii example supposed to suggest? That Northerners are disadvantaged against an Undead opponent when the third player is doing nothing but sitting in their keep? Even if that map were just a terribly balanced 1v1, Northerners can tag those villages with nagas, leave, and then wait for Undead to try to retag it. It's adjacent to the land as you said, and any Undead unit that retakes it is very likely to die (particularly ghosts, which Northerners have a very, very easy time with). You seem to make the silly assumption that the adept is somehow supported by other units which will shield it from the melee heavy northerner army, and that the Naga is on some sort of solo mission.
In fact, it would seem that your entire argument rests on this one-adept vs. one-naga scenario. That is a completely artificial construct. In reality, any adept that stepped into the water would die a very quick, one-turn death at the hands of a grunt or troll (probably being finished by the naga. ), and, particularly on Hornshark, the more mobile northerner army is much more likely to be able to focus more units in any one given location.
Regarding Hornshark, I honestly can't imagine any real argument for Undead being overpowered against the more mobile Northerners there. I'd love to see you beating a decent Northerner opponent in the manner you imagined, on that map. It's completely unrealistic from a mobility-oriented/economic/tactical standpoint.
* * * * *
Incidentally, while I think that you're completely wrong here, I do strongly approve of the use of screenshots.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
What the heck is this? I showed just one dark adept against one naga to demonstrate an isolated incident, and you guys start blurting out idiocy along the lines of "Oh well orcs would have 10 other units nearby! Dark adept can't beat 11 units by itself!" Oh really? It can't? Well I'll be damned, that's incredible!
My argument doesn't rest entirely on adept vs naga, although that match-up alone is quite damning. Ghosts are probably the most frequent naga-killing unit if I'm not mistaken, not dark adepts.
This screencap was taken at dusk. In melee combat that does not take place at night, the naga has the barest sliver of an edge over the ghost because of its 10% higher defense on water. The problem is that the ghost has Drain, meaning that rarely ever will you see a naga take down a ghost. The ghost will be healing itself too rapidly from lifedrain for the naga to kill it.
This is what makes the fight really lopsided. The ghost has a projectile cold attack that turns nagas into popsicles. Ghosts shred through nagas, it's common knowledge. Both types of mermen fare much better against it.
If someone wanted to prove to me that the naga's cold weakness belonged in the game, they would have to show that Northerners consistently trump Undead on a map without water tiles. That's an argument I can get behind because in that case the weak naga would obviously be necessary to keep the factions on even footing when playing upon maps with an even distribution of terrain. My problem here is that I really doubt that's the case.
I keep hearing orcs are more mobile than undead. Let's have a look at that.
[Northerners]
Goblin Spearman -- 4 MP
Troll Whelp --------- 4 MP
Orcish Grunt ------- 5 MP
Orcish Archer ------ 5 MP
Orcish Assassin ---- 6 MP
Naga Fighter ------- 7 MP
Wolf Rider ---------- 8 MP
[Undead]
Walking Corpse ---- 4 MP
Skeleton ------------- 5 MP
Skeleton Archer ---- 5 MP
Dark Adept ---------- 5 MP
Ghoul ----------------- 5 MP
Ghost ----------------- 7 MP
Vampire Bat --------- 8 MP
Northerners aren't really any faster than Undead. They have better speed over hills and mountains, but otherwise I'm not aware of any differences. The orc units that are most effective against undead (Whelps, Archers, Grunts) are also towards the slow end of the faction. Northerners do have a slight mobility advantage due to "mountain-walk" and superior numbers, but it's not a tremendous difference like you'd see against Drakes.
My argument doesn't rest entirely on adept vs naga, although that match-up alone is quite damning. Ghosts are probably the most frequent naga-killing unit if I'm not mistaken, not dark adepts.
This screencap was taken at dusk. In melee combat that does not take place at night, the naga has the barest sliver of an edge over the ghost because of its 10% higher defense on water. The problem is that the ghost has Drain, meaning that rarely ever will you see a naga take down a ghost. The ghost will be healing itself too rapidly from lifedrain for the naga to kill it.
This is what makes the fight really lopsided. The ghost has a projectile cold attack that turns nagas into popsicles. Ghosts shred through nagas, it's common knowledge. Both types of mermen fare much better against it.
If someone wanted to prove to me that the naga's cold weakness belonged in the game, they would have to show that Northerners consistently trump Undead on a map without water tiles. That's an argument I can get behind because in that case the weak naga would obviously be necessary to keep the factions on even footing when playing upon maps with an even distribution of terrain. My problem here is that I really doubt that's the case.
I keep hearing orcs are more mobile than undead. Let's have a look at that.
[Northerners]
Goblin Spearman -- 4 MP
Troll Whelp --------- 4 MP
Orcish Grunt ------- 5 MP
Orcish Archer ------ 5 MP
Orcish Assassin ---- 6 MP
Naga Fighter ------- 7 MP
Wolf Rider ---------- 8 MP
[Undead]
Walking Corpse ---- 4 MP
Skeleton ------------- 5 MP
Skeleton Archer ---- 5 MP
Dark Adept ---------- 5 MP
Ghoul ----------------- 5 MP
Ghost ----------------- 7 MP
Vampire Bat --------- 8 MP
Northerners aren't really any faster than Undead. They have better speed over hills and mountains, but otherwise I'm not aware of any differences. The orc units that are most effective against undead (Whelps, Archers, Grunts) are also towards the slow end of the faction. Northerners do have a slight mobility advantage due to "mountain-walk" and superior numbers, but it's not a tremendous difference like you'd see against Drakes.
Last edited by Shiver on November 24th, 2007, 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You could say that Norherners don't have an effective water village holder against undead. But then, do undead have an effective water village holder against the Northerners? The likely candidate would be the ghost. So the Northerner player in this situation MUST deploy orcish archers correctly to counteract the ghost from taking water villages.
These archers are more expensive than your typical grunt or troll, though. So a ghosts (having superior movement) can create problems on large maps. But large maps tend to have multiple recruitment areas, so you can recruit more orc archers near the frontline when needed.
Speaking of bad units against the Undead, the Assassin is even worse. If you recruited one due to fog, then that could backfire worse than a naga.
Note, I haven't played much MP lately, but I remember this argument well (since I was making the same argument myself about a year ago). One of the solutions I proposed at the time was an L0 goblin unit with a fire attack (see my signature for details), who could fill in for the areas where you couldn't deploy an orc archer and provide a little help killing a ghost. This would create balance issues for other factions, of course.
These archers are more expensive than your typical grunt or troll, though. So a ghosts (having superior movement) can create problems on large maps. But large maps tend to have multiple recruitment areas, so you can recruit more orc archers near the frontline when needed.
Speaking of bad units against the Undead, the Assassin is even worse. If you recruited one due to fog, then that could backfire worse than a naga.
Note, I haven't played much MP lately, but I remember this argument well (since I was making the same argument myself about a year ago). One of the solutions I proposed at the time was an L0 goblin unit with a fire attack (see my signature for details), who could fill in for the areas where you couldn't deploy an orc archer and provide a little help killing a ghost. This would create balance issues for other factions, of course.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."
Orcs can get traits, so add .25 to all the northie unit speeds, then add in the superior movetype, and you're looking at a small but significant ability to run away from anything that can hurt you except for ghosts, which is why you have archers protecting your backs.Shiver wrote:
I keep hearing orcs are more mobile than undead. Let's have a look at that.
[Northerners]
Goblin Spearman -- 4 MP
Troll Whelp --------- 4 MP
Orcish Grunt ------- 5 MP
Orcish Archer ------ 5 MP
Orcish Assassin ---- 6 MP
Naga Fighter ------- 7 MP
Wolf Rider ---------- 8 MP
[Undead]
Walking Corpse ---- 4 MP
Skeleton ------------- 5 MP
Skeleton Archer ---- 5 MP
Dark Adept ---------- 5 MP
Ghoul ----------------- 5 MP
Ghost ----------------- 7 MP
Vampire Bat --------- 8 MP
Northerners aren't really any faster than Undead. They have better speed over hills and mountains, but otherwise I'm not aware of any differences. The orc units that are most effective against undead (Whelps, Archers, Grunts) are also towards the slow end of the faction. Northerners do have a slight mobility advantage due to "mountain-walk" and superior numbers, but it's not a tremendous difference like you'd see against Drakes.
Show us some replays where the naga cold resist is an obvious exploit (your nagas die so easily that the undead have complete water control, allowing them to win), the more replays the better, and we'll make comments and consider stuff. Saying 'I think this is a balance problem, prove me wrong' is like saying 'peanut butter tastes bad, prove me wrong'. We could keep on saying that we thought it was fine, but we couldn't prove that it tasted good to you. You need to show us videos of people finding peanut butter so disgusting that they vomit or something before we're going to change the topping we put on our toast.
If enough people bang their heads against a brick wall, The brick wall will fall down
Troll whelps (a necessity against undead) still move at speed 4 by default, so that's a bit of an overstatement.Weeksy wrote:Orcs can get traits, so add .25 to all the northie unit speeds, then add in the superior movetype, and you're looking at a small but significant ability to run away from anything that can hurt you except for ghosts.
I think I agree with this. I'll see about acquiring some replays eventually. You have to understand that the worst offending maps will have submerged villages, as otherwise the Northerners can easily forgo using nagas altogether.Weeksy wrote:Show us some replays where the naga cold resist is an obvious exploit (your nagas die so easily that the undead have complete water control, allowing them to win), the more replays the better, and we'll make comments and consider stuff. Saying 'I think this is a balance problem, prove me wrong' is like saying 'peanut butter tastes bad, prove me wrong'. We could keep on saying that we thought it was fine, but we couldn't prove that it tasted good to you. You need to show us videos of people finding peanut butter so disgusting that they vomit or something before we're going to change the topping we put on our toast.
put the naga on a village and see how long it takes the ghost to "shred" through it... ghosts were a bit more effective against snakes when their melee was still cold damage, but either way it's something that could take several turns to resolve if the naga doesn't attack...Shiver wrote:Ghosts are probably the most frequent naga-killing unit if I'm not mistaken, not dark adepts.
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The problem is that the ghost has Drain, meaning that rarely ever will you see a naga take down a ghost. The ghost will be healing itself too rapidly from lifedrain for the naga to kill it.
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This is what makes the fight really lopsided. The ghost has a projectile cold attack that turns nagas into popsicles. Ghosts shred through nagas, it's common knowledge.
...
If someone wanted to prove to me that the naga's cold weakness belonged in the game, they would have to show that Northerners consistently trump Undead on a map without water tiles. That's an argument I can get behind because in that case the weak naga would obviously be necessary to keep the factions on even footing when playing upon maps with an even distribution of terrain. My problem here is that I really doubt that's the case.
as for proving UD need naga's cold weakness to balance the match-up... as Weeksy mentioned, I think you're the one that needs to provide the proof to the devs to change the status quo...? once I get my MP server working again, I wouldn't mind helping you gather such evidence, if it exists...
Actually, there's a 40% chance that a Whelp will have Quick (he gets 2 of 5 traits). 50% that an orc will (2 of 4). Northerners are generally as fast/faster than Undead. The speed over hills/mountains makes a big difference in many situations. Of course, since this is an argument over water, the implications of this are cloudy.Shiver wrote:Troll whelps (a necessity against undead) still move at speed 4 by default, so that's a bit of an overstatement.Weeksy wrote:Orcs can get traits, so add .25 to all the northie unit speeds, then add in the superior movetype, and you're looking at a small but significant ability to run away from anything that can hurt you except for ghosts.