Save multiplayer units?

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Kain Mikado
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Save multiplayer units?

Post by Kain Mikado »

Honestly, I haven't tried the search function. I haven't the slightest idea as to what this would actually fall under.

My friends and I love playing BfW, though there is one thing missing from the multiplayer that I was curious about. Are there any mods, or is it even possible for that matter, to have people play a scenario over multiplayer (( Not on the official server )) and be able to save their units after it for another multiplayer scenario?

It would be really cool to be able to build our armies in various ways then try and compete in stages with our finished strategies. It may be lame to certain degrees, but it would be cool none the less.

Anyway, if anyone knows of something to this degree please let me know. ^^
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

No, no way at all to transfer units from one arbitrary scenario to another. The only way would be multiplayer campaigns, which are 1) not fully working yet and 2) there wouldn't be many anyway, and perhaps not in the style you'd like, so you'd have to create your own.
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Haibane
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Post by Haibane »

No, there is not such function, because new multiplayer game with saved units would be completely unbalanced. Only way how to do something similar is multiplayer campaing.

If I should take it as an idea, because you posted your question in the ideas forum, it was proposed already and it's not going to happen. It's more lame than cool so there is no support from developers. Honestly I guess you are almost alone with your wish.

Edit: eh, too slow ^-^
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Sandman
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Post by Sandman »

I think he is not as alone, as you think. It seems to me that such players are just unnoticed and tha's because they mostly aren't active on forum nor playing online. I'm an example of such player. As you can see I've created my account two years ago and posted about twenty times, I'm playing not more than 3 times online per month. But I really enjoy campaigns and scenarios which I'm playing by local network with friends quite often (I've even made some in "Helm's Deep" style:) ). Transfering units from one scenario to another would be an awesome feature IMHO, because we could fight using same characters against new and new hordes of evil:), without creating a campaing which isn't easy.

I'm writing this only to show, that there is request for such feature. I knew that dev's may don't want it in mainline, but I don't really knew a reason why. It won't disbalance games online nor campaigns, and some people could have fun using it so it seems to be good. I know that you, devs have a lot more important things to do first, but I'd be happy to see it in the future.
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Iris
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Post by Iris »

zookeeper wrote:No, no way at all.
Zookeeper LIES! ;)

There is a way: hand-copy the units from a saved game of a scenario's just-before-win moment using a plain text editor (one that is better than Windows's notepad, and paste them to the recall list removing all x= and y= statements.

Who said there is no way? There's always a way, you just have to figure out it yourself. :D
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Rhuvaen
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Post by Rhuvaen »

I think there's some confusion as to what is meant here. Perhaps the original poster could be a bit more specific - a scenario on MP could be anything.

There isn't any support (and not going to be) for this type of scenario:
Player A wins against player B in 1v1, then saves his recall list and goes on to another 1v1 vs player C, taking his units with him.

What's the point of such a match?

Multiplayer campaign support is actually somewhat of a developer focus towards 1.4. I think Haibane's reply could be read mistakenly in the context, Sandman. And they are playable in 1.3.9, even though it may be a bumpy ride.

You as a player can help us get going by using the development version of wesnoth and playing those scenarios and campaigns that have been made, and providing feedback. You have to realize that there are two different styles in MP campaigns: cooperative and competitive - most of the effort so far has been into cooperative scenaria.

Here's some links to what you can play so far:
tsr's Cave Guard - starts cooperatively, then players turn on one another(it's also on the campaign server)
An Unnatural Winter - still only the first scenario working properly... (I hope I'll get back to it soon - also on the campaign server)
Elf War - pm Mythological, I have no idea when he'll publish it :wink:
zookeeper wrote:The only way would be multiplayer campaigns, which are [...] perhaps not in the style you'd like
What's that supposed to mean? Isn't that true for any campaign? :)
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Rhuvaen wrote:
zookeeper wrote:The only way would be multiplayer campaigns, which are [...] perhaps not in the style you'd like
What's that supposed to mean? Isn't that true for any campaign? :)
I meant that while there are some MP campaigns now, none of them AFAIK are like what he seemed to be after.
Kain Mikado
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Post by Kain Mikado »

First, just to get it out of the way:
Haibane: If I should take it as an idea, because you posted your question in the ideas forum, it was proposed already and it's not going to happen. It's more lame than cool so there is no support from developers. Honestly I guess you are almost alone with your wish.
I didn't search, as I stated. In that respect I expected to get some comments about it and I take full responsibility. However the second sentence made you come off as a ____ and was somewhat unneeded.

Getting back to the topic at hand... Thanks for all the replies. What prompted this is my friends and I love SRPGs, mostly for the sake of building up a team of characters and testing the team strategy out on stuff. It would be really cool to be able to take those character teams and battle each other with them. We've been playing BfW for a little while now and it just seemed like something that, if possible in the game itself, would be cool.

I really don't expect it to ever be used on a mass scale of course, too many opportunities to cheat, as well as other terrible design flaws. But with a small group of friends with personalized rules, it could be fun.

To elaborate on what I mean, in case it need be;
Player A, B, and C play scenarios against each other. Later, they can play scenarios against each other in any number of combinations ( ie: A vs B, C vs A, B vs C, etc. ) with the same characters/units.

The point:
Sometimes building strategies and teams is the funnest part. Coming up with this cool combination of characters and formations to go up against whatever your friend may have come up with, and eventually testing your strategies against each other is awesome. It's a different style of play than the traditional war strategy game. Neither is better or worse, it just depends on the individual.

I'll close by saying, it's really not a big deal if it's not, nor will it be a part of the game. It was just something we've always wanted to be able to do and thought it may be possible in BfW. So I came to check. Again, thank you for the replies and we'll check out the MP campaigns. We all already have 1.3.9 ^^
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Post by Rhuvaen »

Thanks for your explanations. MP play is so varied and moddable that it's always interesting to see and hear what people like and come up with.
Kain Mikado wrote:Sometimes building strategies and teams is the funnest part.
This sentence made me think that you might want to try one era that's on the campaign server - the Pick Your Recruits Era. You can customize your faction in the beginning of the game (although it does take some knowledge on how the existing factions work to come up with good combinations).

There's also the concept of "Endless War" which, although single-player in that implementation, might be pretty easily adapted for MP in the development version. I'm not too familiar with the details of Endless War, but the same idea of giving handicaps to the player who won previously might be applied in your MP friends group.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Rhuvaen wrote:Thanks for your explanations. MP play is so varied and moddable that it's always interesting to see and hear what people like and come up with.
Kain Mikado wrote:Sometimes building strategies and teams is the funnest part.
This sentence made me think that you might want to try one era that's on the campaign server - the Pick Your Recruits Era. You can customize your faction in the beginning of the game (although it does take some knowledge on how the existing factions work to come up with good combinations).
Also, it would require only elementary understanding of WML to be able to tweak the era to change the amount of gold you have and add/remove units to the list of choices (as by default you can only pick the units available for recruit in the default era).
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Post by peet »

The only problem I see is that most MP scenarios are just "kill the other guy," meaning that in all liklihood the winner will have a decent recall list while the losers will have lost most of their units. In the next game the previous winner will have a big advantage, which will likely snowball from game to game.

There's two ways I can see to make this work:

1. The scenarios have objectives that are not based on killing your opponent. Such as:
  • control the castle in the middle of the map (or any landmark or landmarks) for n consecutive or total turns
  • Move your units into an enemy "goal" to score points (but the units disappear and will be recallable later)
  • Pick up an item and return it to your home castle (like capture the flag)
  • Get a point for each villiage you control at the start of your turns - first one to 100 wins
  • Survive against the advances of a neutral enemy for the longest time, or be the one to kill the neutral enemy
2. Make losing less of an issue, either by awarding the loser a handicap for next game, or allowing him to recruit level 2 and 3 units that he had which were killed, etc.

Peet[/list]
Kain Mikado
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Post by Kain Mikado »

Thanks for all the replies. I will look into the options suggested. I'm not sure what WML is for sure but if it's a programming language it shouldn't be terribly hard. That being said because I have enough programming knowledge to pick up other languages relatively easily.
The only problem I see is that most MP scenarios are just "kill the other guy," meaning that in all liklihood the winner will have a decent recall list while the losers will have lost most of their units. In the next game the previous winner will have a big advantage, which will likely snowball from game to game.
Hadn't thought about that actually. For some reason units being lost forever slipped my mind. Though I wonder if there would be a way to mod it so instead of being deleted, they are just removed from the battle with like 1hp left and open for recalling the next match.

There are of course a lot of issues with it, but I think it would be possible to work out in some way. I'll keep checking back here for more ideas and post anything I find after testing the suggested methods.

Cheers!
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Haibane
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Post by Haibane »

Well, sorry if I wasn't clear or was even confusing as Rhuvaen implies, it wasn't my intention ^-^

Actually I support multiplayer campaings as well as such mods, eras or so. There are many players who like (would like) such things including me, thought I may not really play them.
My point was it should be made this way, no by adding such a feature in code of Wesnoth. In standart multiplayer game, there is no real point in saving your units at the begining, because they are standart, and there is no point to save them at the end, because one side is going to be defeated one and like that without anything worth of saving.

Now I must admit there are some cases where it still could make sense, like tournaments (a little unfair ones) or simple cooperative games against AI (AI with really much extra gold), so maybe it's not completely bad idea.
I really dunno how many players would like it just for this purpose, thought for tournament there could be more than a few. Anyway, my sentence about numbers was just a guess based on previous discussions. It wasn't mean as the only truth or as offense, it was to determine what is a chance for such feature to be picked by some developer (more people=slightly better chance), so please don't take it wrong, not even this time.

To make some conclusion, imho it's still a lost case as Wesnoth function/feature, but particulary because you can do it (more or less, now or later) via some user made content.

Thanks for your understanding.
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Viliam
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Post by Viliam »

Before the discussion about possibly adding new rule even starts, it should be clear what is the supposed benefit of the feature, how will it work, and how will it influence other existing rules -- for example how will it influence game balance. The proposal will clearly be rejected if it has only marginal advantage, if it is not known how exactly it could look like, or if it would be incompatible with the rest of the game. And this is only the first round. In second round there is question if developers like the feature, and if someone has the skill to code it. Well, the whole process is informal, but this is approximately how it works.

Before thinking about consequences, we need some clear idea how it works. (If we do not know how exactly it works, we cannot evaluate consequences.) So the question how will it work is probably the first one to answer. The influence and benefits will logically follow from it. So, just to make the discussion more exact, let me propose a possible mechanism. If it differs from how you imagine it, post your idea too.


"Restart with recall"

After end of multiplayer scenario, some result screen is displayed (the game does not return to start menu automatically). On this screen, player chat is still available. The game creator has an option "Restart scenario". Even without this proposal, it could be a convenient way to start the same scenario again, with the same players and same settings (which can be modified, before starting another round). Players return to the game creation screen, but there will be a new control, available only when the game is restarted: "Recall units" checkbox. If this is checked, the survivor units from the previous game are put into the recall lists of respective players. (If this option is selected, players cannot change their faction.) The recall units button could also be available per player, so the player could choose to change faction at the cost of losing recallable units.

I do not know how significant change to the game code would it be. What will happen with balance? The next round will be probably unbalanced -- the winners of the first round probably have more advanced units, so they are given additional advantage. (Please note that this could be true even if we include dead units to recall lists. The winners' units probably had more kills, therefore gained more experience. Or maybe the player's better advancement choices helped him to win the game.)

As a side note, I do not know if computer player understands recalling... does it?
Kain Mikado
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Post by Kain Mikado »

Hey no worries Haibane. I'm not offended or anything.

To respond to Viliam;
I understand how the design and implementation process works. Really none of this was meant to be pushed on anyone to actually create in a defined, structured way. I certainly never expected it to be even thought about for the normal release of the game. Though as a side note, extra features, mini-games, and other things not used for the core of a game are never really a bad idea. Aside from time from the developers all it would do is allow the people that want to play it, play it, and the people that don't want to play it, don't have to.

So really my point was to find out if it was in some way already done or would be simple to add in a make shift version of my own. I have too many things going on of my own to really worry about trying to make it a big project. By the way, not saying your suggestions aren't good ones. Just pointing out it's not really my intention or goal to go that far. ^^|
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