Solidifying the void - nondev version

Contribute art for mainline Wesnoth.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting critique in this forum, you must read the following thread:
tsr
Posts: 790
Joined: May 24th, 2006, 1:05 pm

Solidifying the void - nondev version

Post by tsr » June 27th, 2007, 8:37 pm

As someone that can't post in the original thread about Solidifying the void I'll just start one here, for us non-devs and maybe the devs will consider our thoughts...

I don't really like how the concept is implemented in 1.3.4.

I'm imagining the 'board' as the table where wesnoth (as a table-top game) is layed on.

I'm thinking that each map is put down (hex by hex, and then they magically merge - the transistions) in a mould with sharp-hex-like borders.

The border should be some pixels wide, but sharp.

To really convey the effect that I'm aiming at, the south-eastern part of the mould should show some height versus the table and the north-western part some shadow (considering the overall lightsource of wesnoth).
Another thing, fog should not reach outside of the playing field.

I'm aware that this is a work in progress, so 2 cents and all :D

/tsr

Woodwizzle
Posts: 719
Joined: December 9th, 2003, 9:31 pm
Contact:

Post by Woodwizzle » June 27th, 2007, 8:55 pm

I must say I don't like the whole project at all, and haven't seen a single screenshot or mock up that was any good looking. I think it shatters my immersion every time. I realize that it is needed for really small maps on really big monitors, but other than that I want it turned off! please!!
Signature dropped due to use of img tag

User avatar
zookeeper
WML Wizard
Posts: 9740
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 10:40 pm
Location: Finland

Post by zookeeper » June 27th, 2007, 8:57 pm

Could you make a mock-up of what you mean? I think I know what you're trying to describe, but...

There are, I think, basically two distinct ideas of how the thing is supposed to end up looking. One with reasonably hard hex-shaped edges and one with some other kind of a smooth fade-out to either transparent or to some kind of a parchment edge (which would rest on top of the background texture). The details of both are undecided, but AFAIK those are the two major ideas floating around.

User avatar
Rocket Slug
Posts: 87
Joined: March 5th, 2007, 12:03 am
Location: I ate my map and now I'm lost

Post by Rocket Slug » June 27th, 2007, 9:23 pm

zookeeper wrote:some other kind of a smooth fade-out to either transparent or to some kind of a parchment edge (which would rest on top of the background texture).
Well that sounds cool. Perhaps there can even be an overlay around the edges that slowly desaturates into the parchment color? It'll be like an old treasure map that comes to life.

Blarumyrran
Art Contributor
Posts: 1700
Joined: December 7th, 2006, 8:08 pm

Post by Blarumyrran » June 28th, 2007, 11:40 am

i, personally, dont like the wooden look of the void. i liked black more. maybe black with some (space? magical?) details, but certainly not this wood. it doesnt contrast enough.

User avatar
Simons Mith
Posts: 784
Joined: January 27th, 2005, 10:46 pm
Location: Twickenham
Contact:

Post by Simons Mith » June 28th, 2007, 12:21 pm

I haven't reread the original thread recently, but I don't recall either of these alternatives being considered:

1. Instead of trying to to a soft blend to a background texture, try going to the opposite extreme and having a sharp border. Possibly even as extreme as a sharp brass border round the edge of the hexes so that it looks like the map is inset on the table. I'll try to find a sample reference image if this description isn't clear enough. Outside the sharp border, just use a wood texture, or black, or stars or whatever.

2. Instead of having a separate background image, create 'background hexes' as a new terrain type. Then the existing code for blending them in can be used, and troublesome tall objects like Great Trees don't require special treatment - the existing engine can handle it. All that is required is some extra code to add a suitably wide border of background hexes around the map. Half-hexes then become a minor problem, because the 'background' terrain type can be designed to work even as a half-hex. This way, you don't have to worry about dozens of half-hex transitions, only one. And you can have a wood background for a table, a fade to fog, a fade to stars, a magical glow, parchment or whatever. Transitions will be easier to make because you don't have to worry much about blending the terrain.

XJaPaN
Posts: 362
Joined: June 20th, 2004, 5:11 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Post by XJaPaN » July 3rd, 2007, 9:57 am

I really like Simons idea! I also don't like the current border that much.

User avatar
Dovolente
Posts: 140
Joined: April 17th, 2007, 9:02 pm
Location: Southeastern US
Contact:

Post by Dovolente » July 3rd, 2007, 1:16 pm

I personally like the wood better than the void, but I expect it could be improved upon. I play mostly non-rectangular maps, and if anything "shatters my immersion" it's water and grass and hills with tendrils fuzzying off into nothingness. I hope whatever is motivating the devs to improve that unsightlyness isn't being dampened by these negative comments.

User avatar
zookeeper
WML Wizard
Posts: 9740
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 10:40 pm
Location: Finland

Post by zookeeper » July 3rd, 2007, 1:22 pm

Do note that if possible, the border and background style might be made theme-specifiable at least to some degree, so then people could make themes with different backgrounds and so on.

User avatar
irrevenant
Moderator Emeritus
Posts: 3692
Joined: August 15th, 2005, 7:57 am
Location: I'm all around you.

Post by irrevenant » July 4th, 2007, 4:28 am

zookeeper wrote:Do note that if possible, the border and background style might be made theme-specifiable at least to some degree, so then people could make themes with different backgrounds and so on.
If this is done can it be made accessible from scenario WML please? It would be nifty to have scenario-specific backgrounds.

User avatar
Iris
Site Administrator
Posts: 6587
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Post by Iris » July 4th, 2007, 1:20 pm

EDIT: My opinion before reading the thread (i.e. first impression opinion):
I don't like the current implementation in 1.3.4. Yesterday, when I built it and ran it for the first time (after been playing 1.3.2 for some time), I was really, really disappointed. It makes Wesnoth gameplay just look plain stupid. "Hey, look another silly board game!"

And I wanted to show some class-mates the world of Wesnoth before discovering this new development path.

One of the reasons because of which I liked this game initially was the realistic map borders, for example, before 1.3.4 (or 1.3.3?) you could see the rest of the world in the map edges, as the engine made assumptions (interesting and smart ones IMO) of what should be out of the playable area, based on the edge hexes. It was always fun to play with that feature, both in gameplay and map editing. But now it's just awkward and stupid.

At least you could provide a patch to get the old behaviour if I'm the only one who opposes this implementation.

Or I'll have to make one myself if this gets to version 1.4.
Last edited by Iris on July 4th, 2007, 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

torangan
Retired Developer
Posts: 1365
Joined: March 27th, 2004, 12:25 am
Location: Germany

Post by torangan » July 4th, 2007, 2:37 pm

You should follow the discussions - no decision is made so far. We're trying out different approaches and will decide on what the majority of devs likes best. Might well be that the next dev release looks completely different and the one after that has yet another look as we experiment.
WesCamp-i18n - Translations for User Campaigns:
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp

Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!

User avatar
Iris
Site Administrator
Posts: 6587
Joined: November 14th, 2006, 5:54 pm
Location: Chile
Contact:

Post by Iris » July 4th, 2007, 4:01 pm

OK, I went a bit too far. But, anybody noticed some kind of performance loss with this feature? Because I did. Not optimized drawing code, or is it just me?
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm.

Woodwizzle
Posts: 719
Joined: December 9th, 2003, 9:31 pm
Contact:

Post by Woodwizzle » July 4th, 2007, 5:49 pm

I agree with Shadow Master. I would much prefer wesnoth to be a world, and not a board game or map floating in the void.
Signature dropped due to use of img tag

Boucman
Inactive Developer
Posts: 2119
Joined: March 31st, 2004, 1:04 pm

Post by Boucman » July 4th, 2007, 6:22 pm

as stated in the release note, the new bacground is a proof of concept to

* test the code
* allow the artists to test different ideas

again, as stated in the release notes, the code has a big performence code because it hasn't been optimized yet


so suggest alternatives as much as you like, that's usefull

don't complain about it being ugly, we know, that's (sort of) the point

don't complain about perfs, we know that too
Fight key loggers: write some perl using vim

Post Reply