Undead versus Wose Spam

[anakayub]

I watched this match where my partner (2v2) tried to shield his DA's with skeletons, and of course it didn't work due to wose impact damage. So what is an effective method, especially on a small map (Isar's cross)? Should he have shielded his DA's with ghosts (expensive) / ghouls (no resistance to impact), or is there another strategy altogether? If there's another post on this, a link would do, because I've tried searching the posts and couldn't find it. Thanks.

[Raemon]

A little more information could help, such as what else was attacking you, but if it was just a few woses they shouldn't have been much of a problem at night. One ghoul or so can be useful, I think, because the poison would negate the woses' regeneration. At day, woses could have easily torn you apart, but they move slowly enough that skeletons and adepts can outrun them on open ground.

[anakayub]

Hm, it was basically just that...My partner was attacked with about 3-4 woses, with a couple of mermans, the opponent was using rebels (default). So basically, use ZOC with ghouls, then attack with DA's? The map was Isar's, so it was quite difficult to run away and outmaneuver the trees due to small size. Correct me if I'm wrong, thanks.

[Ken_Oh]

If you're talking about the latest Dev version, Woses have -30% resistance to arcane damage, which Ghosts can deliver. I'd say the best bet is to mix Ghosts, Ghouls and maybe a Skel to finish them off, but mostly rely on Ghosts.

[Velensk]

At night skelotons on good terrain reck woses, ghosts are also good.

[Ken_Oh]

Just tested things and looked at the stats.

I would actually stay away from Ghouls when fighting Woses. Remember, Woses don't actually have a weakness versus blade, they simply don't have a positive resistance towards it. So, Skeletons don't do all that great damage towards them. It's only 9 at night, while a Wose can do 12/hit to the Skel. That's 1/3rd of a Skel's HP! That's not during the day either, that's at night. Ghouls aren't much better, taking 10/hit at night while only delivering 5/hit.

Ghosts, on the other hand, 6/hit at night but still do 4/hit during the day, get to add half of that to their own HP and have a high resistance. They are the obvious choice in my mind.

[Velensk]

The reason skelotons work is that they have a much better defence than woses. Woses even on their best terrain get chopped up quick and are more expensive. Ghosts olny work in dev version, so I'd use skelotons in 1.2, (possible ghouls to slow regen).

[Jetrel]

The reason skelotons work is that they have a much better defence than woses. Woses even on their best terrain get chopped up quick and are more expensive. Ghosts olny work in dev version, so I'd use skelotons in 1.2, (possible ghouls to slow regen).

exactly. Also, woses have only a 10% resistance to cold, which becomes a major liability against things like dark adepts, because it doesn't do much to reduce the massive damage dealt by the adept.

Dark adepts are faster than woses, and if two of them slip in at night, they can wither a wose down to a tiny fraction of it's heath; with no repercussions to the DA. Then a skeleton/ghoul/etc. can finish it off.

[Yogin]

Damn. someone do a forum search and look up Bec's infamous rant. I believe I put some stats in there on the subject of ghouls vs. skels when facing woses.

UPDATE: Here it is.

[Becephalus]

oh god no Yogin!

I would typically say just stay out of their way. If there are 3 or 4 woses that si a lot fo gold lumbering around, you shoudl be able to make a focused attack at night with several untis and kill one or two of them easily.

[anakayub]

Hm, did you guys watch the recent match between (if I'm not mistaken) between Ereksos & Wintersmith (RvU) for TOC3? Wintersmith had no answer for Ereksos' mage + wose combination. What weren't killed were mopped up by fighters. Even though the woses were eventually killed, too much damage had already been done. I have the replay just in case neither decides to put it in the archives, so that the others can take a look, because I'm not even an average player, so maybe the better players might have a different view. I've read Bec's post, and after rewatching the replay, I'm not sure what is a workable solution for the undead.

I hope it's not unethical to upload the replay, since I was only an observer; if it is I'll remove it.

[zero1]

I watched replay and wintersmith makes a big miske on turn 7. He is letting his skeletons getting traped at drawn (turn 7 skeletons on 20,10 and 21,10) and in the progress of trying to free them he stays out in the open as day is coming. So what this game shows is that undead can not fight woses / mages in daylight which is as it should be. Undead really need to out run woses at day.

The game is really over by turn 9 as wintersmith lost too many units.

[anakayub]

I have to agree with you on that. Wintersmith probably did not retreat fast enough (probably trying to shield his DA's. But credit has to be given to Ereksos, as his move of the (unnoticed?) fighter to 20, 11 forced the skeletons to stay either way regarless of which unit was to be used to kill him and free the units, unless Wintersmith was content on simpling outrunning the woses, leaving the DA's stranded.

[zero1]

Then you agree that the game does not show an unbalance but rather poor play by undead. Therefore you can not use this to show that woses are too powerfull vs undead

1. if he had no way back he would have moved too far up on turn 5...

2. on turn 6 undead could have retraeted in a way that the unit could not get traped using ghost and bat to prevent fighter from trapping the undead units

Instead undead end up dying with 5 units killing only an elf fighter (luck was not really a issue here). That is devasteting it means that undead are fighting with the back to the wall from there on. As a result it is impossible (due to lack of units) for undead to push elf back the next night (they are only force to stop attacking not withdrawing). Which means that elfs / woses / mages overrun undead the following day.

The undead vs elf macth up have a really great push / pull as undead are chaotic and elfs power units vs undead are lawfull (wose and mages)

Eg. at day a wose does 19-2 damage to a skeleton and the skeleton in return do 5-3 lets say that skeleton is on 40% and wose on 20% so after a fight ev. will read 12 for udead vs 22.8 for elf

Same calculation at night will be 21,6 for undead and 14,4 for elfs. This goes to illustrate just how much ToD means... in this fight it nearly double damage dealt and half damage taken for the unit in farvorable ToD compared to unfarvorable.

Btw dont use all woses and mages elf fighters are a core unit here as well to: / kill adapts / shield weak mage / making adapts think twice before attacking even at night / and more...

The games shows that trapping units in such a match (with great ToD push/pull) are game winning.

[anakayub]

Yep, I really can't argue with your statements. The main reason I used this replay was because I myself have never encountered an opposition using woses against me as undead. And I do agree looking at the replays that using the bat/ghost to ZOC the fighter could have prevented the fighter from trapping in the first place.

I don't think that woses are too powerful against the Undead, just that it would require a better strategy as suggested by previous posts, including yours . But I've yet to see a match where this kind of matchup occurs, with victory for the Undead. But I don't have much MP experience anyway, and woses are usually either wrongly used, or rarely recruited.