The Multiplayer Map Reader's Digest
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- Doc Paterson
- Drake Cartographer
- Posts: 1973
- Joined: February 21st, 2005, 9:37 pm
- Location: Kazakh
- Contact:
Alright.
http://star.walagata.com/w/paterson/feb ... tlehopping
Now, I realize that some people may wince at the inclusion of cave terrain- I too found the prospect rather unpleasant at first. The truth of the matter is, there is no other way to ensure that every leader in the game reaches their center keep on turn 3 (remember that in upcoming versions, the shocktrooper is cut from random leader selection). If not for the Drake Warrior leader, the problem is easily solveable; a hill in the middle of the standard path would prohibit any non-Warrior leader from reaching on their second turn of movement, and would allow all of them to reach on their third.
As you can see, I tried to blend the cave into the map's aesthetic, and I think it looks quite alright; not nearly as ugly as I'd have imagined.
So, give it a try- It's not set in stone yet. Feedback is encouraged.
http://star.walagata.com/w/paterson/feb ... tlehopping
Now, I realize that some people may wince at the inclusion of cave terrain- I too found the prospect rather unpleasant at first. The truth of the matter is, there is no other way to ensure that every leader in the game reaches their center keep on turn 3 (remember that in upcoming versions, the shocktrooper is cut from random leader selection). If not for the Drake Warrior leader, the problem is easily solveable; a hill in the middle of the standard path would prohibit any non-Warrior leader from reaching on their second turn of movement, and would allow all of them to reach on their third.
As you can see, I tried to blend the cave into the map's aesthetic, and I think it looks quite alright; not nearly as ugly as I'd have imagined.
So, give it a try- It's not set in stone yet. Feedback is encouraged.
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I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
This is just 1 excellent example of why we need a terrain that slows down
drakes that isn't cave. It looks alright....but does it make much sense?
One major limiting factor of map development when it comes to working
around Drakes is obviously their movement. That's one reason I could
never get into map making - I had to consider flight far too much for my
taste.
drakes that isn't cave. It looks alright....but does it make much sense?
One major limiting factor of map development when it comes to working
around Drakes is obviously their movement. That's one reason I could
never get into map making - I had to consider flight far too much for my
taste.
- F8 Binds...
- Saurian Cartographer
- Posts: 622
- Joined: November 26th, 2006, 3:13 pm
- Location: Mid-Western United States
krotop wrote:I think players can still reach in 2 turns with a saurian leader (although I couldn't check if cave hills cost 2 MP for saurians). A forest hex on the way might prevent that.
The saurian can still make it, as it also has 6 movement. I suggest a forest hex after the cave. Still, you get serious drawbacks with having a saurian leader- only 26 hp, weak attacks, and no further level-up.[/quote]wesnoth unit tree wrote:Cave= 1 MP, 60% defense
Mushroom Grove= 1 MP, 60% defense
Proud creator of 4p- Underworld. Fascinated by Multiplayer design and balance.
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I agree. Remember that he is removed from random leader, so this must be taken into consideration as well.F8 Binds... wrote:The saurian can still make it, as it also has 6 movement. I suggest a forest hex after the cave. Still, you get serious drawbacks with having a saurian leader- only 26 hp, weak attacks, and no further level-up.
No need to balance out if someone wants to display their faction and leader by choosing the Saurian mages.
- Doc Paterson
- Drake Cartographer
- Posts: 1973
- Joined: February 21st, 2005, 9:37 pm
- Location: Kazakh
- Contact:
Ok Doc, I want to talk about two maps. (I thought I posted this last night, maybe there was some data loss, lol)
Castle Hop:
While it is a well known opinion that the cave in the center of each quadrant is ugly, I generally feel that gameplay should come before looks. That being said, I fear that gameplay has actually suffered here. Initial village collects are awkward at best (though not impossible)..and initial battle flow is very jerky. I am not at all saying it is unbalanced, I’m just suggesting the possibility that in the micro-management quest for perfect balance (based on a rare and less-than-significant problem) that the map has actually lost some of it’s fun value.
Blue Water Province:
I like this map…the way it looks and plays. . I do think there is a potential for stalemate games here though. The battle flow is really pushed to the hard edges of the map, where there are two thin strips of “good terrainâ€. A problem I’ve encountered several (less than half) times: players quickly rush to grab the strips of good terrain and the large expanses of grass become too dangerous to advance…creating a stalemate situation. Like I said, it doesn’t always happen, just my observations based on about 10-12 games.
Castle Hop:
While it is a well known opinion that the cave in the center of each quadrant is ugly, I generally feel that gameplay should come before looks. That being said, I fear that gameplay has actually suffered here. Initial village collects are awkward at best (though not impossible)..and initial battle flow is very jerky. I am not at all saying it is unbalanced, I’m just suggesting the possibility that in the micro-management quest for perfect balance (based on a rare and less-than-significant problem) that the map has actually lost some of it’s fun value.
Blue Water Province:
I like this map…the way it looks and plays. . I do think there is a potential for stalemate games here though. The battle flow is really pushed to the hard edges of the map, where there are two thin strips of “good terrainâ€. A problem I’ve encountered several (less than half) times: players quickly rush to grab the strips of good terrain and the large expanses of grass become too dangerous to advance…creating a stalemate situation. Like I said, it doesn’t always happen, just my observations based on about 10-12 games.
- Doc Paterson
- Drake Cartographer
- Posts: 1973
- Joined: February 21st, 2005, 9:37 pm
- Location: Kazakh
- Contact:
I know what you're saying about Castle Hopping....I've not been able to find a way to improve the flow without sacrificing too much of the balance. Care to take a crack at it? (This goes for anyone who wants to give it a go.) I'll take a look at it; maybe with a bit of teamwork we can find the ideal solution.jb wrote:Ok Doc, I want to talk about two maps. (I thought I posted this last night, maybe there was some data loss, lol)
Castle Hop:
While it is a well known opinion that the cave in the center of each quadrant is ugly, I generally feel that gameplay should come before looks. That being said, I fear that gameplay has actually suffered here. Initial village collects are awkward at best (though not impossible)..and initial battle flow is very jerky. I am not at all saying it is unbalanced, I’m just suggesting the possibility that in the micro-management quest for perfect balance (based on a rare and less-than-significant problem) that the map has actually lost some of it’s fun value.
Blue Water Province:
I like this map…the way it looks and plays. . I do think there is a potential for stalemate games here though. The battle flow is really pushed to the hard edges of the map, where there are two thin strips of “good terrainâ€. A problem I’ve encountered several (less than half) times: players quickly rush to grab the strips of good terrain and the large expanses of grass become too dangerous to advance…creating a stalemate situation. Like I said, it doesn’t always happen, just my observations based on about 10-12 games.
As for Bluewater, that's an interesting observation about the stalemates- It may very well need a bit more "cover terrain" in the flatter areas. I'll study that further and post any updates in this thread.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
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- Inactive Developer
- Posts: 521
- Joined: October 27th, 2005, 5:30 am
- Location: St. Paul, Minnesota, USA, Earth
I agree, I also think that the easiest solution is to just remove the warrior from the leader list. I'll work on getting that done and then perhaps we can revert it back to its pristine selfjb wrote:Ok Doc, I want to talk about two maps. (I thought I posted this last night, maybe there was some data loss, lol)
Castle Hop:
While it is a well known opinion that the cave in the center of each quadrant is ugly, I generally feel that gameplay should come before looks. That being said, I fear that gameplay has actually suffered here. Initial village collects are awkward at best (though not impossible)..and initial battle flow is very jerky. I am not at all saying it is unbalanced, I’m just suggesting the possibility that in the micro-management quest for perfect balance (based on a rare and less-than-significant problem) that the map has actually lost some of it’s fun value.
Both that and the sergeant are out of place as leaders IMO.
Also I will be posting minor revisions to all my maps within the month of May, perhaps some major revisions too who knows, and I am working on a few new things, but who knows when I'll have 8 hours to sit and work one fully out.
There are three roads to ruin: by gambling, which is the quickest; through women, which is the most pleasurable; and through taking the advice of experts, which is the most certain. -de Gaulle
If Doc agrees this is a problem, I think a possible step to take is to make the middle area a little bit more accessible. Maybe hills instead of mountains. I don't think it should be extremely accessible, eg. all ford, but a little bit less mountains and unpassable mountains. It just rarely seems to come into play.jb wrote: Blue Water Province:
I like this map…the way it looks and plays. . I do think there is a potential for stalemate games here though. The battle flow is really pushed to the hard edges of the map, where there are two thin strips of “good terrainâ€. A problem I’ve encountered several (less than half) times: players quickly rush to grab the strips of good terrain and the large expanses of grass become too dangerous to advance…creating a stalemate situation. Like I said, it doesn’t always happen, just my observations based on about 10-12 games.
-Yogin
- Temuchin Khan
- Posts: 1800
- Joined: September 3rd, 2004, 6:35 pm
- Location: Player 6 on the original Agaia map
I have played the new Wilderlands twice now, and here are my initial impressions:
1) I like the fact that it now includes random monsters like the Yeti,
2) but players one and three take the brunt of the monster damage,
3) player two tends to get held up,
4) and player four gleefully takes advantage of the situation.
Has anyone else had this experience?
1) I like the fact that it now includes random monsters like the Yeti,
2) but players one and three take the brunt of the monster damage,
3) player two tends to get held up,
4) and player four gleefully takes advantage of the situation.
Has anyone else had this experience?
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- Doc Paterson
- Drake Cartographer
- Posts: 1973
- Joined: February 21st, 2005, 9:37 pm
- Location: Kazakh
- Contact:
A human was playing as the monsters, right? This is an FFA, and I'd expect the players to be at least somewhat aware of which other teams are weakening/being strengthened, etc., and adapt accordingly (by, for example, weakening the strong team(s), making alliances to kill the monsters and the like). It may be though that the placement and "threat levels" of the various monsters need a little tweaking, to avoid predictable situations. I'd love to see a replay of what you described, to try to discern how much of the situation was brought about by choices, and how much of it was players following the easiest/most obvious (though not necessarily the best) path to victory.Temuchin Khan wrote:I have played the new Wilderlands twice now, and here are my initial impressions:
1) I like the fact that it now includes random monsters like the Yeti,
2) but players one and three take the brunt of the monster damage,
Player one really only has the Skeletal Dragon as an immediate threat, and the dragon is fairly slow. It may be that his path to player one should be slowed a little, by closing one or more of his exits from the cave.
Could you elaborate on this?Temuchin Khan wrote: 3) player two tends to get held up,
I think that perhaps the monster team should have easier access/increased pressure into and around player 4's area.Temuchin Khan wrote: 4) and player four gleefully takes advantage of the situation.
Has anyone else had this experience?
Note that it takes the Yeti a very long time to get out of the mountains, and the other monster with early/mid game access to player 3's area is the sea serpent, whose striking zone is somewhat avoidable. The pressure on player 3 seems alright to me. This is assuming a computer-style monster player with no set strategy, who will just attack whoever is closest- I don't think that we should assume the monster player will play in this way, but regardless-
Replays demonstrating your points would be most helpful. Thanks for serving your country by giving feedback.
I will not tell you my corner / where threads don't get locked because of mostly no reason /
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme
because I don't want your hostile disease / to spread all over the world.
I prefer that corner to remain hidden /
without your noses. -Nosebane, Sorcerer Supreme