Drakes against thunderers?

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nebula955
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Drakes against thunderers?

Post by nebula955 »

The drakes just don't do well against knalgans IMO, particularly the thunderers. Can you all give me some ideas based on my problems?

First, let's consider only the drakes: the drakes have horrid defense....and the Thunderers always seem to hit. The Thunderers are tough anyways. Statistically, even 3 Clashers in daylight often can't kill a thunderer on a hill(they would do EV of 29 damage). However, based on drake's horrid defense of only 40% at best, just two thunderers can seriously wound any drake. Moreover, the thunderers cost less or equal to any drake!

Now, if you try to recruit saurians, an Ulf can always kill an Augur(these things probably won't want to attack a thunderer anyways), and even if a Skirmisher is on good terrain, two thunderers hitting once (64% probability) leaves the skirmisher almost dead.

This is assuming small maps like Isar's Cross, where you probably might not want Drakes anyways, but..........
Ideas?
Lord Sturt
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Post by Lord Sturt »

Heh, you should try playing as Drakes v Knaglans on Age of Heroes with the enemy leader being a Dragonguard, they own drakes so much it's not funny (I did this once, I defeated all the enemies on the map only to find this dragonguard on a mountain range surrounded by a posse of thunderguards...)

I suppose there is a logical strategy to counter Thunderer ownage, but it's really the same problem as Spearman spamming v drakes... :?
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Herduk
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Re: Drakes against thunderers?

Post by Herduk »

nebula955 wrote:The drakes just don't do well against knalgans IMO, particularly the thunderers. Can you all give me some ideas based on my problems?

First, let's consider only the drakes: the drakes have horrid defense....and the Thunderers always seem to hit. The Thunderers are tough anyways. Statistically, even 3 Clashers in daylight often can't kill a thunderer on a hill(they would do EV of 29 damage). However, based on drake's horrid defense of only 40% at best, just two thunderers can seriously wound any drake. Moreover, the thunderers cost less or equal to any drake!

Now, if you try to recruit saurians, an Ulf can always kill an Augur(these things probably won't want to attack a thunderer anyways), and even if a Skirmisher is on good terrain, two thunderers hitting once (64% probability) leaves the skirmisher almost dead.

This is assuming small maps like Isar's Cross, where you probably might not want Drakes anyways, but..........
Ideas?
You have to combine the two races, Drakes and Saurians.
Protect saurians from Ulfs and others dwarves with Drakes and move them against Thunderers.
Drakes have a HUGE advantage against Dwarves: Knalgans are SLOW!

If you want to laugh, i got always problems against drakes with my dwarves.
stipiee
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Post by stipiee »

Knalgans are SLOW!
wont help him on small maps.
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Kalis
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Post by Kalis »

I came to the same conclusion you did nebula.
In fact, I don't think it's possible to beat knalgans with drakes on a small map.
On a big map you get the ability to outmanuever, seize villages, and assassinate kings, but small maps don't leave you that option.

I did a game vs a great player where I choose drakes in a 1v1. My opponent mass trained thunderers and trappers, with a gryphon and a thief. Instant GG. There wasn't a single thing I could do.

The problem is thunderers have that nasty melee attack along with the thunderstick, and attacking them requires you to step into grass vs hill or mountain (on most 1v1 maps). And if you let them hit you first, mass thundersticks + trappers vs 40% defense is a sure-death, even with clashers instead of normal drakes.

However, for isar's cross, it's a bit different because it's a 2v2. You should ask your ally to provide all the fronting troops, which your drakes hide behind your ally's troops, and hit from the flanks when necessary.
Drakes cannot stand in terrain and take hits because of that pathetic defense. They have to be the ones to strike first, and you have to strike hard.

edit: I have a drake/knalgan isar's cross film posted on this thread which illustrates what I mean. It's not ideal (rarely is), but it gets the point across I think.
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 10&start=0

Just an interesting point:
a quick/intelligent Augur has 16 hp. That's a 1-hit kill by a thunderer.
In a lot of cases, you can't attack the thunderer with augurs even if you wanted to.
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Post by Blarumyrran »

there could be some saurian with magical melee... would solve it.

Augurs 5*3 is kinda silly against thunderers 34 hp, even if its magical. thunderer does much more damage to augur. and augur is only 1 gold cheaper.

and, on large rough-terrain maps knalgans still have griffin as an ace.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Kalis wrote:I came to the same conclusion you did nebula.
In fact, I don't think it's possible to beat knalgans with drakes on a small map.
On a big map you get the ability to outmanuever, seize villages, and assassinate kings, but small maps don't leave you that option.

I did a game vs a great player where I choose drakes in a 1v1. My opponent mass trained thunderers and trappers, with a gryphon and a thief. Instant GG.
There is no official 1v1 map where that's true.

I'll ask this again, and I feel like I say this to a different person every day-

Is there some reason that you think you're right about this, when top players don't agree with you, and think that this match is perfectly even?

If you really want to know how to win this match, try picking knalgans against a good player.
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Sapient
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Post by Sapient »

Notice how rare mountain-villages and mountains next to villages are on the official maps? A thunderer on a mountain can kill a lot of drakes, true, but that is afterall his favored terrain.
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JW
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Post by JW »

Get the dwarfs off the mountains. Kill the dwarfs. Repeat.

Let them advance to you in night as you retreat so they cannot escape your daytime massace.

Clashers are good, Fighters are good too. Burners are good against Fighters.

Use Saurians sparingly as they are easily killed in this matchup, though if they recruit heavy outlaws, an Augr or 2 is nice.

Seriosuly, just get the dwarfs off of those **** mountains and you'll be fine.
IB
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Post by IB »

I got randomed drakes vs dwarves on blitz a short while ago. He mass recruited thunders and stuck them all in mountains on either side. I thought I was screwed so I flew down the middle and killed his leader :D
Imp
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Post by Imp »

IB wrote:I got randomed drakes vs dwarves on blitz a short while ago. He mass recruited thunders and stuck them all in mountains on either side. I thought I was screwed so I flew down the middle and killed his leader :D
Don't you hate being wrong?

Or am I missing the point? :lol:
Kalis
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Post by Kalis »

Doc: sablestone delta. There's lots of castles on the map, and castles beside villages.
Faction balance is very much based on maps, and there are several maps were drakes are at a disadvantage in 1v1s.

In fact, in 1v1s, I would argue that it's impossible to choose drakes so your opponent trains counterunits.
However, if you go random and got drakes, you do have a decent chance.

I have a collection of around 15 drake films if you want doc (because I spent a few days training with them).
Against your common player it was easy win after easy win. Against the better players, it was a slaughterfest.

For example... here's 2 loyalist vs drake games on Blitz and Silverhead crossing. In one I was drakes, in the other I was loyalist. I'm really not sure how drakes could of been played differently in either one.
Attachments
Loyalist slaughter drakes.zip
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Kalis
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Post by Kalis »

Oh nebula, here's a drake vs knalgan victory I played today on blitz (random v random).

Blitz offers some manuever due to the huge lake in the middle which knalgans can't cross.
Basic strategy was to wipe out the army on one side, then charge in and assassinate the king.

Note I defintely got lucky after having the burners mass miss on the gryphon (turn 16 or so?)

Hope it helps a bit.
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Last edited by Kalis on March 31st, 2007, 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Doc Paterson
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Kalis wrote:Doc: sablestone delta. There's lots of castles on the map, and castles beside villages.
Faction balance is very much based on maps, and there are several maps were drakes are at a disadvantage in 1v1s.

In fact, in 1v1s, I would argue that it's impossible to choose drakes so your opponent trains counterunits.
However, if you go random and got drakes, you do have a decent chance.

I have a collection of around 15 drake films if you want doc (because I spent a few days training with them).
Against your common player it was easy win after easy win. Against the better players, it was a slaughterfest.

For example... here's 2 loyalist vs drake games on Blitz and Silverhead crossing. In one I was drakes, in the other I was loyalist. I'm really not sure how drakes could of been played differently in either one.
That's great that you've spent "a few days" training with the Drakes, but players who disagree with your assessment of things have played with them for well over a year, close to two for some (myself and a few others).

I don't understand why you're making such bold contradictory assertions as though you've discovered something about the maps and the factions that none of us have. Anyways-

I think that most of what you claim is way way off, and that the replays are pretty bad examples because the play is far from optimal.

You also didn't answer the question that I posed to you, above (no one ever does it seems.)

Forgive my foulness; I just feel like I go through this cycle with some player or other on a weekly basis.

You might want to take a look at Roman Loyalist's "Drakes can't beat Undead" thread.
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F8 Binds...
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Post by F8 Binds... »

Kalis- you beat me today with drakes against dwarves with drakes :)
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