Give merfolk the submerge ability

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » January 11th, 2007, 12:33 am

I always thought the Merfolk were like lungfish -- yes they can breathe air, but would rather breathe water. Although I can't see arguing the "realism" or a fantasy creature's respiratory functions going anywhere useful here...

catwhowalksbyhimself · January 11th, 2007, 2:21 am

Merfolk, however, might have to surface for air every now and then, spoiling any chance of ambushing anyone.

Why would they come up for air? As has already been established, mermen can clearly breathe water, or are at least assumed to do so. That's sort of the whole reason for giving them the submerge ability.

Dragon Master · Post by **Dragon Master** » January 11th, 2007, 2:37 am

I'm sorry that I haven't read this entire thread but please guys, think about it. Do you have any freackin' idea how overpowered this would be?!?!?

Post by **Ken_Oh** » January 11th, 2007, 3:57 am

I don't think it would be overpowered at all on most MP maps. It's not like most units go romping through water anyway.

PingPangQui · Post by **PingPangQui** » January 11th, 2007, 7:49 am

Dragon Master wrote:I'm sorry that I haven't read this entire thread but please guys, think about it. Do you have any freackin' idea how overpowered this would be?!?!?

Why? I can't think of any map within mainline with a considerable amount of deep water (not sure about that meteor / lagoon maps though). That said, I don't see many balancing issues, too. In case there would be really to much deep water on a map it could easily be changed to shallow water without breaking balance, imho.

P.S.: It would actually be nice if we had some maps with deep water in mainline like the second one in this thread. Thus people could experiment with hiding strategies a bit more.

Post by **La_vie_en_Wose** » January 11th, 2007, 8:57 am

Chris NS wrote:Submerged skeletons can also just stand there underwater. Merfolk, however, might have to surface for air every now and then, spoiling any chance of ambushing anyone.

I totally disagree. A merman is more comfortable in water with its fishlike abilities than an overwheighted skeleton ( iron shield, helmet and sword at least ) whose first ambush movement will only result in making hippocampuses and plankton to flee.

Sombra · Post by **Sombra** » January 11th, 2007, 9:45 am

I think its a great idea. If balance will be a problem perhaps only some of the mermen units should get the submerge ability.

Leo · Post by **Leo** » January 11th, 2007, 12:43 pm

Ken Oh wrote:
Leo wrote:But now AI cheatly ignore ambush & submerge and I can't remember any mainline campaign where AI use merefolk (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Read mine and Darth Fool's posts.

Ok, so Bay of Pearls probably will require some rebalance.

Chris NS · Post by **Chris NS** » January 11th, 2007, 4:04 pm

La_vie_en_Wose wrote:I totally disagree. A merman is more comfortable in water with its fishlike abilities than an overwheighted skeleton ( iron shield, helmet and sword at least ) whose first ambush movement will only result in making hippocampuses and plankton to flee.

That's why skeletons suck big-time if they actually fight in deep water.

Post by **Noyga** » January 11th, 2007, 6:06 pm

Do mermen do really need submerge ? What it would add to the game ?
On MP maps it is (like ambush), rather pointless.

This would make the skeleton submerge more useless in the rare cases (mostly campaigns) it can be exploited.
Because the enemy (mermen) could be hidden too, and it is much more mobile..
A bad idea IMHO.

Post by **Thrawn** » January 11th, 2007, 6:18 pm

Noyga wrote:Do mermen do really need submerge ? What it would add to the game ?
On MP maps it is (like ambush), rather pointless.

how is ambush pointless, unless you play No Fog? Even in shroud games you can get ambush units (woses/rangers if AoH) into position.

But on the other hand...I agree that giving mermen submerge would be really overpowered...Maybe give it to one of the branches (hunter comes to mind).

tr0ll · Post by **tr0ll** » January 12th, 2007, 1:10 am

Submerge and Ambush seem to be the same ability, on different terrains.

In the interest of simplicity, why not drop Submerge, and add an advancement option to each terrain-specialized race for an Ambush capable unit on the appropriate terrain?
- elf, forest, ranger
- merman, deepwater, spearman
- dwarf, steep mountain + rocky cave, sapper (rockfall ranged attack, could fill a pre-runemaster slot)
- etc

One problem with this is the races might become too symmetric and thus boring...

Post by **Sangel** » January 12th, 2007, 2:06 am

tr0ll wrote:One problem with this is the races might become too symmetric and thus boring...

This is indeed the reason why not all races have an "ambush-type" ability on one of their units.

Dragon Master · Post by **Dragon Master** » January 12th, 2007, 2:36 am

Dragon Master wrote:I'm sorry that I haven't read this entire thread but please guys, think about it. Do you have any freackin' idea how overpowered this would be?!?!?

It's overpowered because you're taking a unit that specializes in water and making it even better at that. Mermen are useful enough when used properly, we don't need to beat dead horse by making the unit scream "put me in water!"

catwhowalksbyhimself · January 12th, 2007, 5:49 am

we don't need to beat dead horse by making the unit scream "put me in water!"

That's exactly the impression a merman unit SHOULD make. If you're not going to do so, then why call them mermen at all?