Give merfolk the submerge ability

YbeRn00b · Post by **YbeRn00b** » January 8th, 2007, 12:31 pm

Merfolk rule the sea at daytime but suffer at night. The problem is that naga and flyers both move faster and has a lot better movement over land.

Not that this is broken or unbalanced: merfolk deals good damage, has cold resistance against ghosts and good defences. Earlier discussions (mostly) conclude that the combat stats are as they should.

But earlier discussions also shows that mermen not give the player a feeling of controlling the "masters of the sea" nor does the current stats reflect the descripion of mermen as superior to naga on deep sea due their ability to breath under water.

My idea is to give mermen the "submerge" ability. This does not change combat in any way but improve the mermens tactical choices slightly and enhance their racial uniqueness.

I think this will make water battles more challenging and fun, currently they can be rather boring due high defences and few types of units involved. I also think the the increased probablility of fights over deep water and ambushes would make water battles solve faster and add tactical depth.

There might be some disadventages, but with a new development version coming up, I say: let's try it!

Imp · Post by **Imp** » January 8th, 2007, 12:44 pm

This sounds like an interesting idea, and I agree that sea battles should have more tactical depth.

Post by **Ken_Oh** » January 8th, 2007, 2:19 pm

At least it would make Submerge useful.

The only problem I see with this is the campaigns. I think some of the HthT scenarios would work out a lot differently than they do now.

PingPangQui · Post by **PingPangQui** » January 9th, 2007, 2:27 pm

Ken Oh wrote:At least it would make Submerge useful.

The only problem I see with this is the campaigns. I think some of the HthT scenarios would work out a lot differently than they do now.

Hm, ... ambush doesn't work when fighting via ai, afaik, thus submerge propably won't work too. Therfore no differnce or problems

.

Post by **Ken_Oh** » January 9th, 2007, 2:50 pm

You've got to be kidding. Take what you see below and consider what a dozen mermen with would be able to do traveling hidden on what is the most common tile in the 4th scenario of HttT.

[map]sssssssssssssssssssscdggggfffff
sssssssssssssssssssscdggggfgfff
sssssssssssssssssssscdggtgggfff
sssssssssssssssssssscdgggggggff
ssssssssssssssssssssccdggggggff
ssssssssssssssssssssccddgggggtf
ssssssssssssssssssssscddggggggf
sssssssssssssssssssssscdggggggf
ssssssssssssssssssssssccdgggggf
ssssssssssssssssssssssccddggggg
ssssssssssssssssssssssscddggggg
ssssssssssssscscsssssssscdgtggg
ssssssssssscc\ctsssssssscdgggCg
ssssssssssscctggccssssssccdgC3C
sssssssssssc\ggCcdssssssccddCCC
ssssssssssscgggCdgccssssscddCgg
sssssssssscctcC2Cgdcsssssscdgtg
sssssssssscccgCCCddsssssssccgcg
ssssssssssssc/gdgcccsssssscdccc
ssssssssssssccdcdcccsssssccdggc
ssssssssssssccccccccsssssccgggg
ssssssssssssscccccccccssscdgtgg
ssssssssssssssccccZcccssscdgggg
sssssssssssssscccccccccscddgggg
sssssssssssssssccccccZcccddgggg
ssssssssssssssscccccdccccdggggg
ssssssssssssssscccccccccdgtgggg
sssssssssssssssscZcccccddgggggg
sssssssssssssssccccccccddgggggg
sssssssssssssssscccccddggggggtg
sssssssssssssssscccddgdgtgggggg
ssssssssscscscsccddgdgggggggggg
ccssscscscZcsccddgdgggggggggggg
ccssscccsccdcddgdggtggggggggggh
ddcsscZccdcddgdgggggggggggggghh
gdccsccddgdgggggggggggggggggghh
gdcccddgdtgggggtggggggggggggghh
ndctcdggggggggggggggggggtgghhhh
1dcccdgggggggggggggtggghghhhhhh
ndkkkdggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhh[/map]

Imp · Post by **Imp** » January 9th, 2007, 3:16 pm

A few minor modifications should fix that map right up.

JW · Post by JW » January 9th, 2007, 4:48 pm

Ken Oh wrote:You've got to be kidding. Take what you see below and consider what a dozen mermen with would be able to do traveling hidden on what is the most common tile in the 4th scenario of HttT.

Don't the orcs use Nagas and Bats???????

ps, I think this is a great idea.

Airk · Post by **Airk** » January 9th, 2007, 5:40 pm

I endorse this, especially if the lore indicates that Mermen breathe water.

PingPangQui · Post by **PingPangQui** » January 9th, 2007, 7:50 pm

Ken Oh wrote:You've got to be kidding. Take what you see below and consider what a dozen mermen with would be able to do traveling hidden on what is the most common tile in the 4th scenario of HttT.

I think there is a slight misunderstanding. What I meant was that the ai knows where your elvish ranger is, irrespective whether he is ambushed or not, afaik. That said, I assumed that the same applies for submerged units. However, I don't want to spread wrong information. Maybe a dev familiar with this topic could give a sign whether it is true what I just said or not.

Btw.,

JW wrote:(...) I think this is a great idea.

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » January 9th, 2007, 9:58 pm

Stilgar's humble opinion: I like it.

governor · Post by **governor** » January 9th, 2007, 10:01 pm

Im trying to reason my way through this. First off, mermen breathe air. Submerge can last an extended amount of time (50+ turns). So either they submerge and have 0 land movement (confined to water tiles) or they can submerge for only a short period of time before resurfacing for air. Call it the dive ability. (loyalists - can only dive during the morning and afternoon: 2 moves to 'zone in' on an unlucky unit, also it self balances, because the loyalist unit will give away his position to preform its bonus attack).

Considerations:

A unit confined to water is a very specialized unit and should probably be an option for advancement from level 1 to level 2.

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » January 9th, 2007, 10:04 pm

governor wrote:A unit confined to water is a very specialized unit and should probably be an option for advancement from level 1 to level 2.

Possible situation:
Your merman is on land for some reason, with no access to water. It levels up on your opponent's turn, and the random chooser makes it into this unit. Result, your unit is stuck there and a sitting duck. Doesn't sound too good to me, unless there's some way to cut that choice off of the random level-up thing (there may already be, I haven't kept up with every minute change that's been added to 1.2.)

im the one you think of · January 9th, 2007, 10:11 pm

PingPangQui wrote: I think there is a slight misunderstanding. What I meant was that the ai knows where your elvish ranger is, irrespective whether he is ambushed or not, afaik. That said, I assumed that the same applies for submerged units. However, I don't want to spread wrong information.

IIRC this is totally wrong, I think the AI can't see where you unit is, but because it is always 'paying attention' it can easily work out where it is in a lot of circumstances, in this map it wouldn't have much of an idea where they are, I'm not even sure if it would know they exist once they spawn.

Post by **Darth Fool** » January 9th, 2007, 10:35 pm

im the one you think of wrote:
PingPangQui wrote: I think there is a slight misunderstanding. What I meant was that the ai knows where your elvish ranger is, irrespective whether he is ambushed or not, afaik. That said, I assumed that the same applies for submerged units. However, I don't want to spread wrong information.
IIRC this is totally wrong, I think the AI can't see where you unit is, but because it is always 'paying attention' it can easily work out where it is in a lot of circumstances, in this map it wouldn't have much of an idea where they are, I'm not even sure if it would know they exist once they spawn.

I am quite sure that the AI ignores fog of war (ie it can see where your units are even if fog is on), but does not know where your units hidden with ambush or submerge are, except possibly the leader who it might still know where it is. If it finds hidden units, it is generally becuase they hid in the path that the AI was taking anyways.

Post by **Ken_Oh** » January 9th, 2007, 11:53 pm

Darth Fool wrote:I am quite sure that the AI ignores fog of war (ie it can see where your units are even if fog is on), but does not know where your units hidden with ambush or submerge are, except possibly the leader who it might still know where it is. If it finds hidden units, it is generally becuase they hid in the path that the AI was taking anyways.

Exactly. Let me illustrate with another map, this one from my campaign.

[map]fffffffffffffffffffgfgRggfffffffffffffff
fffffffffffffgfggggffgRgfgffffffffffffff
ffffffggfgfgggg?ggggggRRggggggfgfgffffff
fffffffgggg?ggggggvggCCCggggggggtfffffff
ffggffggggtggggggRgRCvtvCRg?gggggggggfff
ffgggggggggggggRRRRgCCtCCgRRRRgggggggfff
fgfggggggggggRRg?ggggg1gggvgggRRgg?ggggf
fggggggggggRRggggggggcgcccccggggRRgggvgg
gg?gvggggCRRRCgcccccccccccccccggggRRgggg
gggggggggckkkccccccscsssssssccccggggR?gg
gfggdgggcckkkccsssssssssssssssccccggRRgg
ffgggggccckkkcssssssssssssssssssccccggRg
gggccccccckkkcssssssssssssssssssssccccRR
gccccccssckkkcssssssssssssssssssssscc//c
cccscssssckkkcssssssssssssssssssscc//ccs
cssssssssckkkcsssssssssssssssssscg/ccsss
sssssssssckkkcsssssssssssssssssscgggccss
sssssssssckkkcsssssssssssssssssscgCvgcss
sssssssssckkkcccccccccccccscssssccgggcss
sssssssccckRkccccgcgcgccccccccscc//ccsss
sssssssccgRRRgcggggnnnggggcgccc//ccsssss
sssssscccgrRrggggggn2nggvggggR/cccccssss
ssssscccggtRrgggvgggnggggggRRgggcgccccss
sssccccggggrRggggggggggggggRrgg?gdggcccc
sccccggg?gggRrgggggggggggggrggggggggggcc[/map]

You're Undead, team 2, that can only recruit WCs and Skels/Skel Archers and who is horribly outmatched by Loyalists to the north. The whole idea of this scenario is a contrived way to make Submerge useful. You should first recruit 6 Skels/Skel Archers and send them straight north through the deep water. Then you send the rest of your gold as fodder to the west bridge as you let your leader escape to the east.

Long story short, the AI -never- suspects that those Skels you sent north are going to come up at the leader's feet. It's a strat that totally wouldn't work vs. a real person.