Thrawn's Complicated Era

[Thrawn]

I'm making an "overly complex" era, although the units won't be given sprites anytime in the near future. It will be default, but with much more complex trees, utilizing the idea that Alks voiced...I had it a long time ago, but all my units from then are out dated.

Elves

Archer--Marksman--Sharpshooter
----------------------Elvish Scout
----------Ranger-----Avenger
----------Hunter(lvl1)--Woodsman(lvl2)
------------------------Trapper (from Ranger, lvl2)
-----------------------Greatbow (from Sharpshooter, lvl2)

--------fighter (from archer)

Fighter----Hero---Champion
------------Captain--Marshal
-----------------------Grappler(from Hero, lvl2)
--------archer

Shaman----Druid---Shyde
----------------------Herbalist
-------------Enchanteress--Sorcererss--Sylph
--------------------------------------------Loremistress(lvl3)

----------Recluse--(from duid, lvl 1)---Dryad
-------------------------------------------Elementalist( from Recluse)

Scout--Rider--Outrider
--------Mounted Archer-AMLA
----------------------------marksman(lvl2)

new units:
*hunter line: have swords, but instead of bows, use hunting birds...as they level, bird gets stronger/gains marksman (but blade, not pierce damage)
*tracker: gets a defensive slow attack (the trap). have to see the IE to see how to do that.
*greatbow: keeps a not much stronger marksman, but gains weaker fire and impact ranged attacks (different arrowheads), ambushes
*grappler: loses bow (!) but can fight unarmed. think quick troll whelp that has more weaker attacks...an elvish thug, IYW
*Herbalist: cures posion, but only cure +4. has weak thorn poison attack, and gives up the magic on her thorns. slightly sturdier than shyde, and still elven.
*Loremistress: good entangle, heals+8, but can't cure. Keeps magic, though not as strong as sorceress. stronger entangle and thorns
*Recluse line: elusivefoot, with 1 move in forest. weak, but stronish melee and magic attacks. can turn into a dryad, or a sort of half-wose (giving it spiritual transformation into a different realm). Stongish, and regenerates. The elementalist is a mage with cold attack, but weaker fire and impact attacks (void=cold, fire=fire, air=lightning=fire with fewer/stronger hits, earth=impact attack (entangle), and water=impact=stronger/fewer hits). really weak melee.

so archer can become fighter and vice versa. Archr can become scout, but scout can only turn back into marksman, and when it becomes horse archer.

Wow this is alot...I'll continue later. Pretty much this is a brainstormfest. Throw out ideas (that fit in with factions). To brainstorm,please follow this guideline...

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unit name:elvish herbalist

advances from: druid

what it does: A weaker curer than the druid (only cure+4). It also loses magic on thorns to gain a weaker thorn poison attack. Slightly sturdier than the druid.

how it adds something: Although this is somewhat redundant, it adds a nre layer of depth to the elves. Although it gains poison, a poweful weapon, and some hp, it has drawbacks that make it unique without being underpowered. It can't cure as much damage, as magic is stronger than herbs. It loses the magic attack of the thorns, and the weaker thorns make it less damaging to horsemen and drakes, equalling out the effects of the poison. Although this could be seen as making the elves to similar to the orcish assassin, this is not the case. The assassin a level one, where as the hetbalist is much less common. The assassin is faster, and has elusiveoot, making it more useful in most places than the herbalist...blah blah blah.

Pretty much, the unit can't just be a lvl 4 to some unit, or a clone of a unit from another faction: it has to have some unique flavor to help keep the factions from becoming homogenous.

Don't mention northerners..I probably have it covered. I'm going to encorperate a lot of free goblin ideas, as well as all the ideas I've had but known not to post, as they wouldn't be well recieved

I need help complicating dwarves...they aren't a very interesting race in the way gobbos/elves/are...

I'm not touching the drakes...except for some basic things...

And thank you mod, for the split, and the title

[BloodIssyl]

The unit tree is confusing, im not sure if i completely understand it. Archers are lvl 0, right? Your saying that a unit can change from an archer into a swordsman (lvl 1), into a cavalry unit (lvl 2), and then back to a cavalry-archer (lvl 3). I can see how this works, and how it would be interesting and fun to play, but for it to work, LOW experience would have to be set to ensure your not just 90% massing archers.

[suggestion] I think that this should work with another time period though, or even multiple. For instance, a unit could start out as a caveman, progress to a greek hoplite, into a medieval knight, and then into a WW2 rifleman. It would be this sort of epic themed, time travel idea. [/suggestion]

I like it.[/u]

[Thrawn]

I love the reception of my ideas...At least people like Danny got laughed at, and weren't ignored...

screw this project *gets depressed*
given how people recieved Alk's idea, I thought I'd get some feedback/comments.

[Maeglin Dubh]

Don't you dare go emo on me, Admiral.

The fact of the matter is, that tree probably confused more than a few people, most of whom were drained of the will to reply. Try a graphical representation, if possible, using the sprites you'll use for the era.

[Thrawn]

Don't you dare go emo on me, Admiral.

sorry, but I hate having no feedback on things. It makes me feel like I'm wasting my time on something worthless, which starts off a whole chain of things that actually make me depressed (I can't help it, I haven't done anything remarkable enough to change this opinion of myself) I'm not trying to guilt trip people...it is just that if no one gives a damn, why am I doing it?

The fact of the matter is, that tree probably confused more than a few people, most of whom were drained of the will to reply. Try a graphical representation, if possible, using the sprites you'll use for the era.

I tried a graphical tree, and it is even more confusing, because I don't have sprites for the new units.

BUT TO CLARIFY:

These are the default factions. All units that sound familiar are the ones you are thinking of, from default. The rest are described. The biggest problem in the comprehension of this is that the units become lower levels. This is when they deviate from the default tree. This is because the unit is trying something new, rather than improving what it already is.

Example: the elvish archer always can upgrade into the elvish ranger/marksman. This is it improving, following RIPILIB, as usual. However, the archer may also decide that having to fight a huge monster with the dagger he has is dumb, and uses a different melee weapon, a trap. He is not a better archer, he is an archer who decides not to use his experience to become better at what he is, but rather use the experience as a base to become inventive.

I hope this clears things up.

Orcs

Grunt-->Warrior-->Chieftain
----------------------->Berserker(lvl2)*---> Chieftain
---------->Berserker*(lvl2)-->Savage*(lvl3)
------------------------->Chieftain
--------------------->Orcish Ruler

The figher gets two es new branch.
*Berserker: fighters who succumb to bloodlust become berserkers. They have less hp, and a stronger attack. These berserkers have to upgrade paths: One is back to the regular Orcish Chieftain (with experience, the bloodlust wears off) The other branch is Savage, a stronger Berserker. However, making this a bit odd is that the Orcish Warrior can also then go and become a Berserker. This allows for some added strategy, I don't think I need to expand from there, figure for yourself
*Ruler: They finally get their leadership unit, used in SoTBE! Rationale being that units able enough to live as warriors command respect of their fellow orcs.

Archer-->Xbowman-->Slurbow
---------->Grunt (lvl1)
---------->Orcish Shaman-->Orcish Hexer
archers who are affected by their percived weakness can rise up to the occasion and become grunts, to salve their pride.
I also allow smart archers use their ranged prowess to become shamans. Physically weaker, but the underappreciated shaman (buffed by me, a bit)

*I find this a rather boring line so far, some ideas on additional orcish (not goblin/troll) would be appreciated.

[Zhukov]

Don't you dare go emo on me, Admiral.

Damn straight.

Thrawn: I read this awhile back. However I did not post my impressions because they were mostly negative and I didn't see how they could help.

So...the 'sideways level' thing: I understand the idea. It's actually not that bad. However it strikes me as a bit useless. If I level up an archer, why on earth would I want to turn it into a fighter when I could level it into a ranger instead and then recruit a fighter as well? While I would have no objection to this system (even if it were added to mainline) I would never use it.

[Thrawn]

Don't you dare go emo on me, Admiral.

Damn straight.

Thrawn: I read this awhile back. However I did not post my impressions because they were mostly negative and I didn't see how they could help.

So...the 'sideways level' thing: I understand the idea. It's actually not that bad. However it strikes me as a bit useless. If I level up an archer, why on earth would I want to turn it into a fighter when I could level it into a ranger instead and then recruit a fighter as well? While I would have no objection to this system (even if it were added to mainline) I would never use it.

the archer-> fighter thing is merely to add variety or something of the like...It has to be there, even if seldom used.I'm mainly interested in the other lines, the ones that actually change things...

and negative reactions are better than no reactions, some of them can have valid points behind them. No reactions just sucks...big time

[Maeglin Dubh]

I know lack of feedback can be a problem (just look at the Spacenoth thread....), so just keep trying.

[unsung]

es, no going emo. I know the vauge are you live in after, all.

I actually like the concept of things losing levels when becoming something completely new.

When I see stats, art, or just have more free time if they (stats) are there, I'll give you more feedback.

[Alks]

I'm still thinking about this concept.

However I stuck completely in MtG - what swallows lots of my time, as well as working in school for 'special' kids (mostly expelled from other schools).

What I can do, is to post a complex self-explaining document, that would clarify legibly, what the idea of complex tree is about. When one spends lots of time on deckbuilding and studying logic in his spare time - one gets ideas.

And Thrawn, whenever you do not get comments it's because lots of people are commenting only things that:

a) are prospects for future
b) deserve encouragement
c) are superb or at least good

So, the best comment is lack of comments.

I'll think I'll grab all of Slav sprites made by Kitajec(looong time ago) and make up some stats and trees and merge Germanic and Slav - but do not expect to do it soon.

Other option - ESPECIALLY FOR YOU, THRAWN - if that concept deserves your interest. Just refer to Wayfarer's sketches as use them as stances. When Aragwaithi were in early design process he made lots of graphical images, that could be useful.

And idea of decreasing unit level is something I miss. But Thrawn lost the concept. It's not the archer changing into fighter. It's more like "unlocking" certain branches. Instead of advancing to level 2 , you may choose to become level 1 of this branch(which isn't accessible at the start) - branch that would be powerful.

And idea of complex trees.
There are certain 'tree schemes' that tend to repeat often. Categorizing them, defining - making a 'tree concept guide' would provoke many interesting ideas.

Again, look at Lavinians. Especially when they were at the early stage with excellent auxiliary - legionary combination. There are many concepts of one starting unit developing into many specialized lvl2. Look what rogues do to dwarves with their up-to-lvl2 advancement - they form an excellent auxiliaries. And so on.

Categorize them, divide them, make some schemes. In my free time, I'll make something out of it. Even when I visit Wesnoth forum once per two weeks, I catch myself thinking of it.

Longish, useless post.

POST-EDIT: Thrawn, make a simplified elvish branch (overpowered) of Glade Keeper- Glade Overseer - Glade Lord. Something really powerful, but only in case of Overseer and Lord(Keeper should be as close to any other lvl1 units as it is possible). So powerful that it would be worth in case of campaign to struggle towards it. Any elf could become Glade Keeper after advancing to lvl2. But it would make him considerably weaker, till he become Overseer(who would be much better lvl2 than others).

That's the basic idea. Some 'special branch', that anyone could attend. NOT A SPECIALIZED one, because we do not want archers turning into fighters, or mages turning into warmachines.

[Thrawn]

_re:Alks_
I agree that I am not serving your idea justice, but I am adding more lines. I just don't want the lines to be unnecessary and cause factions to become more homogeneous. I do add new lines, but not too many...I don't have tons of ideas anyomore.

_re:people encouraging me_
thanks...

anywho:

goblins!
goblin spearman-->goblin rouser
-----------------/--->pikeman--->AMLA/grunt
----------------/---->javineleer*
---------------/
--------------/
goblin inventor*(lvl0)-->rock thrower*
-------------------------->tobogganer*
-------------------------->grenadier*
-------------------------->glider*
-------------------------->siege wagon*
-------------------------->chemist*

:_pretty much ,goblins stay weak, but have lots of fun...
*javileneer: gets better throwing spears: they realize they last longer by staying in back.
*inventor: weak, but fun, if leveled. inventor has weak impact attack, and takes a relitively long time to level...but worth it.
*rock thrower. A ponderous 1-man catapult/bastila (whichever you prefer). like troll Rocklobber, but weaker, and a close range pierce attack. Regenerates, (as all the war machines will, due to having the inventor using it/repairing it) and can't be poisoned.
*tobogganer:8 moves! but has horrible moves on everything but snow/ice, sand and hills. good defense on snow, ice, mountains, and forests.
*grenadier: has ranged fire attack, due to very crude bombs.
*glider: think bat, but without the drain, and can drop rocks ala ewoks. skirmisher.
*siege wagon:war machine, steadfast. Really weak attack, but good hp, defenses(for goblins ), and regens
*chemist...stronger inventor.

Troll
Whelp-->Troll-->Warrior
-----------------/>Rocklobber
----------------/
--------------->Hero-->*whatever*


__*trolls need imaginative love!!!*___

[Flametrooper]

I thought of a possible Troll faction awhile back: the Tribal Group of Advanced Trolls. (Advanced translated odd from Common Trollish "Gru-Baga" which just means "He who head big-rock body hard-stone" and was used to denotate a troll advanced both physicaly and mentally, a rare occurence. Higher Trollish uses "Aragruba", whcih means "Advanced above others [trolls] in intelligence and skill." These can be traced in origin to Old-Stone Trollish "Agruu" or "Big-rock, good" and simply meaning any troll in any way better than most. I like language creation. )

The Aragruba Trolls are still primitive, yet advanced by troll standards; the rare, smart trolls who were often kicked out (you know how smart people get treated by large groups of stupid people? Trolls are even worse...) sort of allied, and accepted other types of trolls, like frost trolls et cetera. They learned to use crude swords and spears, make fire, and even smith their own weapons. They also managed to develop a High Trollish language so common trolls can't understand them. They are sort of snobby, never ally with orcs, and don't like un-advanced trolls, which they call "Ugguwa".

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Young Ice Troll -> Ice Troll -> Blizzard Troll
                               -> Frost Troll

Youngling Warrior -> Troll Clubber -> Troll Hammerhitter
                  ->  Troll Stickstabber -> Troll Spearjabber
                  ->  Troll Bladeholder -> Troll Swordslasher

Initate Aragruba -> Aragruba Troll -> Aragruba Stonemaster
                                                

Youngling Flameguard -> Flameguard Troll -> Troll Firemaster

Ice Trolls
The Ice Trolls are from the very far north, further than even most Trolls go, and no humans come to their lands. They have adapted to their environment so much that they even become of frost and snow themselves, in the way other trolls are of stone. They have good Snow moves, very high Cold res and weak Fire res, and Impact fists (lvl1), Impact and Cold fists (lvl2) and at lvl 3, the Blizzard Troll has a cold ranged attack (Snowblizzard or something, crude magic) and the Frost Troll has melee-cold-slow freeze attack.

Warrior trolls
The Warrior trolls are the most basic of this troll army. The Youngling-Clubber-Hammerhitter is basically identical to current Whelp-Troll-Warrior; Stickstabber-Spearjabber has 2-strike Pierce instead, and Firsttrike at level 3; Bladeholder-Swordslasher has 3 strikes and Blade damage. Normal troll res, though Stickstabber line has slightly better physical resistances (since spearmen make better defenders)

Aragruba Trolls
These are like the troll shamans (remember, Aragruba means "advanced in Intelligence") they have basic Impact ranged magic. No healing or curing, obviously, as trolls regenerate. (Actually, not every troll does - only the Warriors.) The Stonemaster could have some custom ability of turning enemies to stone temporarily. (I think that exists in DotG?) The trolls, after all, worship, though that might not be the right word, they honor the stone, like elves do for forest and trees and earth.

Flameguards
The secret of fire is one few trolls even among the Aragruba know, and those who do know it are held in high esteem. They had to wrest it from Orcs in a long, long struggle, ever after known as "The battle of the fire", and the few who know its secrets guard it from common Ugguwa trolls zealously. They wield it into battle, having Torch attacks, and are said to keep an ever-going fire deep in their halls, in secret rooms, which they never let go out and use to light all their other fires with.

[Thrawn]

FT: I like the shaman and frost lines...I'm thinking that the shamans will be a branchoff of rocklobber...instead of AMLA they can also become the rock shamans.

Frost trolls I think have to be another group off of the warrior line.

Thanks!


Bwa Ha Ha, with the tobogganer and the frost trolls, all 2 maps or s that use snow will ph34r the power of the northerners.

[Thrawn]

Outlaws
Thief-->Rouge-->Assassin
------------------->Highwayman*

Footpad-->Outlaw
-----------/>Runner*
----------/
vandal*-->brigand*-->pillager*
---------------------->executioner*

Trapper-->Poacher
----------->Sniper*

Thug-->Bandit
-------/>Vanguard*
------/
vandal*-->...

*Highwayman: loses skirmisher, gets ambush
*Runner:slightly stronger, skirmisher
*vandal: slightly tougher/slower outlaws. They have clubs, and torches, but no sling (torches are melee), Brigand is stronger. Pillager gets a ranged torch attack, and executioners lose the club for an axe.
*Sniper:frailer, less attacks, but marksman
*Vanguard:decent resistances and hp. No steadfast, though

[CoolGoose]

I want more