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JW
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Post by JW »

turin wrote:
JW wrote:As for the damage types, I don't really see this as a problem at all. You don't have the Default era factions fighting Imperial era factions other than in the custom Extended era. The Default factions are in a different place and time than the Imperial era, so if you can't have them fight each other logistically, why are they there?
First of all, my understanding of the EOM is that it is in a place that the default factions COULD reach, and in fact would reach on a regular basis.

Apparently, I see the damage types as much more important than you do. To me, saying the faction operates under different damage types is like saying is in a different world with different laws of physics.
The history I've written (I'm not sure how long ago it was put in the Shifter thread so I forgive you for forgetting) writes that there was a massive earthquake tearing a chasm into the earth between 2 treacherous mountain passes sometime after the people who are now called the Shifters arrived where they are. This cut them off from their homeland and they then adapted to their new situation. This obstacle is eventually overcome, but I think I've written it close to when the evil force in the east creates the swampland, but that detail I haven't solidified yet and I'll wait til the campaign is written up to discuss that.

As for the damage types, if you actually look at the damage types, there are not "different physics." All original 6 damage types are still there. There are simply 3 new damage types added to the mix. So, in theory, if resistancies were written for these 3 damage types for all default units, all of these factions could fight. They can actually fight now, but default would have an advatage as I think default resistance to a damage type is 100% so the EOM guys would deal little damage to them. I really don't see this as a problem and I'm curious as to why it bothers you so much.
Steelclad Brian wrote:Sorry to be disagreeable, but isn't the only distinction here really that the Sidhe received your blessing (and an appropriate piece of real estate) while the Drakes did not?
The real distinction is that the Sidhe are in a land with other factions they can interact with. The drakes are by themselves on an island. And the history of the Sidhe is very fleshed out.
Nevertheless, the Drakes are official and right now the IE is not. Therefore the Drakes are more "real" in the WOW than the IE even though the story surrounding the IE is a lot better.
Jester wrote:So you see, if Wesnoth is to be compared with medieval Europe (which you claim it to) then it wouldn't be that strange to have an Era with legendary factions.
I don't know about you, but I see a difference between what people believe and what there actually was... and I completely fail to see how the medieval belief in a bunch of wierd semi-humans means that it is OK to have a faction of wierd semi-humans...

It all boils down to this - Wesnoth, so far, is basically about humans who have some characteristic changed. Elves are men with a greater sense of beauty and wisdom. Dwarves are men with exaggerated senses of honor and possessiveness. Orcs are men with less rational control of themselves. Werewolves are... men who are part wolf. :?
You contradict yourself by saying there is a difference between what actually was and what people believed was and say semi-humans shouldn't be added, then you flip-flop and say Elves and Orcs et al are okay because they have a characteristic of humanity changed, but Werewolves (who in any case are changing) are not okay because they are wolf-men?

Arbitrary and hypocritical.
there are two levels to the IE...
They are all in the IE download though, I'm sure this is what confuses people.
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Post by Dragon Master »

If Wesnoth is about humans with different characteristics and is like medieval europe, how do you explain Gryffins? Suarians? Giant scorpions? Cuttlefish/sea serpents? Woses?
There are so many variants of creatures, both sentinent and non-sentinent, that Wesnoth is hardly huamn based. IMO Turin, you are just being stubborn and you have an overzealous annoyance towards drakes. You're not the boss so not matter how much you try to exclude them, drakes will still be mainline.

Drakes: "Huraah!"
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JW
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Post by JW »

Hmm...I didn't mean to sound so harsh, but my points stand. Sorry if I didn't word them politely enough. :oops:
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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

turin wrote:Factions are not going to be added, eras are. Default is big enough already.
I can see Wesnoth broadening its focus sufficiently over time that it will officially include eras and campaigns that aren't set in the Wesnoth 'known world'. But yes, I probably should have said 'era' rather than 'faction'.
Cuyo Quiz wrote:I remember a passing commentary about the sinking isle, and how the Drakes seemed intelligent/organized enough to get out of it when it gets too small.
Plus they can fly. Getting off a sinking island shouldn't be a major impediment...
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Post by Noyga »

BTW there is a little problem for the drake islands : the saurians are allied to the drake, so they would leave near the drakes. How would the saurians escape ?
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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

Noyga wrote:BTW there is a little problem for the drake islands : the saurians are allied to the drake, so they would leave near the drakes. How would the saurians escape ?
I thought the Saurians allied with the Drakes after they fled their sinking isle. However, I didn't play the Drake campaign all the way through, so I could be wrong...
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Post by Jester »

JW wrote:Hmm...I didn't mean to sound so harsh, but my points stand. Sorry if I didn't word them politely enough. :oops:
I think turin can take that little harshness, I mean he himself can be pretty harsh too...
JW wrote:You contradict yourself by saying there is a difference between what actually was and what people believed was and say semi-humans shouldn't be added, then you flip-flop and say Elves and Orcs et al are okay because they have a characteristic of humanity changed, but Werewolves (who in any case are changing) are not okay because they are wolf-men?

Arbitrary and hypocritical.
Thank you forr answering that.
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Post by Dacyn »

JW, I think turin is using a slightly different definition of the word 'characteristic'... He is using it to refer to mental characteristics[1]. "Wolfness" or "semi-humanity" is not a mental characteristic; it is just changing a human into part of something else, or changing its physical characteristics. What is a wolf-man? Maybe it is a human who has less sanity than usual[2]...

[1] Although in fantasy, mental characteristics affect physical characteristics in strange ways. But this is not the point...
[2] Although in this case, it's hard to see why the physical characteristics caused by insanity would be similar to those of a wolf :?
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Post by jg »

Noyga wrote:BTW there is a little problem for the drake islands : the saurians are allied to the drake, so they would leave near the drakes. How would the saurians escape ?
Oh, I think that the Drakes would just give the saurians a lift on their back, wouldn't they? [/joke]

jg
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Post by Ranger M »

jg wrote:
Noyga wrote:BTW there is a little problem for the drake islands : the saurians are allied to the drake, so they would leave near the drakes. How would the saurians escape ?
Oh, I think that the Drakes would just give the saurians a lift on their back, wouldn't they? [/joke]

jg
true, the only real problem is with the clasher units, because they can't fly (but they could easily steal a boat/make a raft and have the others pull them along, it would also let the others rest mid flight when the sea was calm)
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Post by Na'enthos »

Boats, my friend. Boats are the answer (if they did in fact live on that island and not join the drakes later).
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Post by turin »

Dacyn wrote:JW, I think turin is using a slightly different definition of the word 'characteristic'... He is using it to refer to mental characteristics[1]. "Wolfness" or "semi-humanity" is not a mental characteristic; it is just changing a human into part of something else, or changing its physical characteristics. What is a wolf-man? Maybe it is a human who has less sanity than usual[2]...

[1] Although in fantasy, mental characteristics affect physical characteristics in strange ways. But this is not the point...
[2] Although in this case, it's hard to see why the physical characteristics caused by insanity would be similar to those of a wolf :?
What he said.

---

Not all drakes can fly. Clashers cannot fly. And, drakes do not fly so much as "hop" (I did not make this up), so although they can move over water, they do not have the type of bodies to make a journey of thousands of miles without setting down on something solid. Just like most birds cannot migrate over oceans, the drakes probably could not.

Another question: If drakes did manage to get off of their island, where did they go? For them to make sense in Default, they would have to be somewhere on the Great Continent fairly near Wesnoth; but we never see them again.
Dragon Master wrote:If Wesnoth is about humans with different characteristics and is like medieval europe, how do you explain Gryffins? Suarians? Giant scorpions? Cuttlefish/sea serpents? Woses?
There are so many variants of creatures, both sentinent and non-sentinent, that Wesnoth is hardly huamn based. IMO Turin, you are just being stubborn and you have an overzealous annoyance towards drakes.
There are no sentient creatures that are not essentially variants of humans... gryffins, giant scorpions, cuttlefish, sea serpents, none of them are sentient.

Now, Woses, Saurians, and Drakes are probably all sentient. And they are the three creatures added around 0.8 that I was strongly opposed to... coincidence? I think not. ;) But really, can someone explain why we have woses, saurians, or drakes (conceptually) other than they are "cool"?

Anyway, I have interest in arguing over woses, saurians, and drakes. They will simply never exist in my version of the WoW, unless someone gives a compelling reason why they should - if you want to, you can write your own that they do exist in.

Dragon Master wrote: You're not the boss so not matter how much you try to exclude them, drakes will still be mainline.
I never claimed I was the boss. :roll: Random attempted insults are not helping anything.
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Post by Dragon Master »

turin wrote:
Dragon Master wrote: You're not the boss so not matter how much you try to exclude them, drakes will still be mainline.
I never claimed I was the boss. :roll: Random attempted insults are not helping anything.
I never attempted to insult you. I was reiterating the fact that on numerous occasions, you make statements or rules and expect people to agree with them.
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Post by turin »

Dragon Master wrote:I never attempted to insult you. I was reiterating the fact that on numerous occasions, you make statements or rules and expect people to agree with them.
I make statements, I don't expect people to agree with them. I would in fact be very surprised if many people did... getting people to agree with me is not my intent.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
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Post by Dragon Master »

This arguement is going nowhere. We've established the fact that you dislike drakes and novel race ideas, get over it.
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