defense rebalancing

[Dragon Master]

This has been sitting in the back of my mind for quite while...

Everybody plays elves. They are nuetral and have 70% defence on forests which are one of the most common tiles. The units in my opinion are waaay overpowered for such defense. Solution:give elves 60-65% defence in forests

Everybody plays dwarves. They are nuetral and have 70% defence in mountains.hills which are one of the most common tiles.Solution: give dwarves 60-65% defence in mountains/hills

Hardly anyone plays orcs, I suggest better ranged units

Loyalists are a bit of hit and miss, Either your army is slaughtered or they overwhelm your opponent. Need some low cost units for late game to help turn the tide

Undead are fine

NO ONE plays drakes, they need better defense! at least give them 50% in villages, mountains/hills, and lava

Flame me all you like...

[JW]

Flame me all you like...

You don't know what you're saying.

[Thrawn]

This has been sitting in the back of my mind for quite while...

Everybody plays elves. They are nuetral and have 70% defence on forests which are one of the most common tiles. The units in my opinion are waaay overpowered for such defense. Solution:give elves 60-65% defence in forests

Everybody plays dwarves. They are nuetral and have 70% defence in mountains.hills which are one of the most common tiles.Solution: give dwarves 60-65% defence in mountains/hills

Hardly anyone plays orcs, I suggest better ranged units

Loyalists are a bit of hit and miss, Either your army is slaughtered or they overwhelm your opponent. Need some low cost units for late game to help turn the tide

Undead are fine

NO ONE plays drakes, they need better defense! at least give them 50% in villages, mountains/hills, and lava

Flame me all you like...

1. How can everyone play two things at once. He must be special.
2. Yes, elves are special, and unique on forests. Lets make them worse, as seeing as they aren't good on most other terrains. Same with dwarves, who are even worse everywhere else.
3. Lets make orcs even more scary, shall we? (I'd play on line to prove my point, but have old version).
4.Changes of 5 seem to be undesired, as they don'e change anything enough.
5. Loyalists now need not only diversity and killer lawful troops, but they need to cost less as well (the spearman works for that already, even if it is the same as an elvish fighter cost wise)
6. Undead are fine, though most people think they are underpowered. At least you get this.
7. I think drakes would be really conspicious in villages, and easy to hit as well...

I think mermen should get the 30% CTBH, and that elusivefoot should give only 60% max as well...

No offence, I hope, as this isn't flaming...

[Dragon Master]

not at all. just to point out, when I said everybody plays elves and dwarves, I meant so far those are the only races I've seen played online other than random.
I know elves and dwarves are bad on other terrains, but that's no excuse to make them incredible on a certain type. Suarians have high defence almost everywhere, yet they still get killed easily becuase they are so fragile. With elves it is quite different as they are not so fragile.
The thing about orcs is I feel they just don't cut it as a race. They just need something more appealing.
Changes of 5% seem useful becuase 10% is too high a change, and five is a small difference that still changes things significantly
I don't care if drakes are easy to hit in villages, it's quite weird when all races except drakes get terrain bonus on a least one type. Even if drakes got a bonus on some obscure terrain I would be happy.

The point is I think multiplayer isn't diverse enough. I'm really trying to suggest changes that only slightly impact the game yet make other races seem more appealing. I'm tired of playing against elves online.

[Sapient]

Since factions are balanced relative to one another, you could describe Drakes as having a bonus on grassland (from a certain point of view).

If you want a map where the Drake faction has a noticable advantage, try Random Map (desert), or a map with lots of chasm or rivulets.

[JW]

I know elves and dwarves are bad on other terrains, but that's no excuse to make them incredible on a certain type. Suarians have high defence almost everywhere, yet they still get killed easily becuase they are so fragile. With elves it is quite different as they are not so fragile.

No excuse?? Dude...you still have a 30% chance to hist them, without marksman or magic. And Elves are fragile, with 29 or less hp. Mountains aren't all that common terrain, and dwarves have 30% defense on grassland and forest - and they can't move very fast to their preferred terrain. Think about that.

The thing about orcs is I feel they just don't cut it as a race. They just need something more appealing.

Have you played them? Their cheapness can overwhelm people quickly. They aren't very exciting, perhaps, but they get the job done just fine.

ps, 10% isn't a huge deal.

The point is I think multiplayer isn't diverse enough. I'm really trying to suggest changes that only slightly impact the game yet make other races seem more appealing. I'm tired of playing against elves online.

The biggest reason this is is because people are most comfortable with playing Rebels, as Elves are the primary race in HTTT, the most popular campaign. This probably won't change until players on the server get more experienced. Experienced players usually pick random though, because adds the element of surprise.

[turin]

"Most" elves don't have 70% on forest - 1/2 of them have 60%, and those that do have 70% are support units. (Woses have 70%, IIRC - but they're not elves.) Get your facts straight before posting or no one will take you seriously.


I mean, come on... you're making blanket statements about balance that are completely unsupported, and you completely ignore what the official MP balancers have been doing for over a year - i.e., balancing the factions against one another.

[Dragon Master]

I feel the flames! they burn! yes your all right. But I think JW hit the nail right on the head by saying that people play elves because they are familiar with them. This thread was more of a rant than helpful suggestions, and for that I am sorry . I think I just snapped when I had to fight elves for the gillionth time....

[Zhukov]

I think this is touching on the issue of balance verses character. The perfectly balanced game has all factions nearly identical, perhaps with different graphics. However this is a bit boring (not to say that this can't succeed, Massive Assualt uses this and is pretty fun).

On the other hand, you can have diverse factions. However this is very tricky to balance. Wesnoth fits into this catagory.

What you proposing is a slight shift of several factions towards a central 'standard.' Personally I dislike this, and I think the majority of developers do as well.

What I wanted to say in response to your points on Elves, Dwarves and Loyalists has already been said.
Drakes: I see plenty of people play drakes. I personally dislike them, but that has nothing to do with being over/underpowered. Their defence should not be raised. They already have high damge and strikes, high HP, decent movement and flight. I think high recruit prices and low defence is a reasonable price to pay for this.

Orcs: On this point, I more-or-less agree with you. I don't think they are over/underpowered, but I believe that they are somewhat bland and lacking in character. This is actually why I started making my own Orc faction, I figured it is easier to make your own then trying to bring about change in the present one. Changes to the Northeners would be welcome but, given the attitudes of developers and the work involved, very unlikely.

[JW]

(Woses have 70%, IIRC - but they're not elves.) Get your facts straight before posting or no one will take you seriously.

Like how Woses actually have 40% defense in forest....

[Yogin2]

Woops... There dies another little piece of Noy.

[Cuyo Quiz]

Orcs: On this point, I more-or-less agree with you. I don't think they are over/underpowered, but I believe that they are somewhat bland and lacking in character. This is actually why I started making my own Orc faction, I figured it is easier to make your own then trying to bring about change in the present one. Changes to the Northeners would be welcome but, given the attitudes of developers and the work involved, very unlikely.

Well, i remember that there was brainstorming about branching the Grunt line for a more offensive unit (namely, one with charge). Now the next version should be able to do nifty things like the "rage" special... graphics and more brainstorming, anyone?.

On gameplay, i feel that the Goblin Spearman is more often than not underused. Combine with the fact that people don't seem to want to use the Archer, and well...

[Evilstein]

And talk about the LV 2 units?

do you think they are balanced????

well playing age of heroes let us do more strategy but every one focus on default mod and i think that maybe some balance must be set in the LV 2 unit.

Elf hero and Elf cavalier are very strong. they gain a lot beetween lv1 and lv 2 in comparaison to the other unit.

But there is maybe more LV2 unbalanced unit? like the 2 different evolution of the ghost one is better than the oher.

[Dragonking]

Elf hero and Elf cavalier are very strong. they gain a lot beetween lv1 and lv 2 in comparaison to the other unit.

Elaborate. With stats examples, comments and proposed solutions please.

[Jym]

The biggest reason this is is because people are most comfortable with playing Rebels, as Elves are the primary race in HTTT, the most popular campaign. This probably won't change until players on the server get more experienced. Experienced players usually pick random though, because adds the element of surprise.

Seconded. I've been playing MP with friend on a LAN. The first time, most of us had only played HttT so far. The one who chosed something else than rebels spend lot of time looking at stats and trying to guess what to recruit, making the first games very slow and boring.

Now, I'm confident with all default faction (not that I can play them well, I still need to learn how to play drakes properly) and whenever I play MP, I choose at random (especially if fog is on...) Last time we played MP on LAN, there was another unexperienced player who mostly played HttT. We told him to chose the rebels in order to get quickly in the game.

Palying other campaigns teachs to play other factions... And I also spend some time playing MP 1v1 vs AI on small maps (the very small Roze's map or the whirlind, or similar stuff) with random pick and slowly increasing the amount of gold for the computer (up to ~300 and first player for computer vs 100 for me). That teached a lot.

Concerning orcs, I don't think they are that blank. They have a cheap regenerating unit (I use trolls much more than woses, but that is also because AI does not takes ambush into account iirc) and a level 1 poisoner.