How much gold are experience points worth?
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How much gold are experience points worth?
I was wondering about this while I was playing today. Suppose I have a unit that can be recalled, which is of a type that costs less to recruit than recall, and has a small amount of experience. How much experience does it take for it to be worth recalling that unit instead of recruiting a new one? For instance, a Spearman, at 14 gold apiece, costs 6 extra gold pieces when recalling as opposed to recruiting. At what amount of experience does he become worth the extra cost?
I would say each gold is worth around 5 XP, and whether the unit's traits are good or not is another gold. But it is a very subjective thing - depending on the situation, it might be a good idea to recall a Spearman (14 gold) that only has 15 XP...
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If I have a surplus of gold, I'll recall units with very few XP or no XP if it has the right traits. Any loyal unit, and quick/resilient especially for slowish melee units. Sometimes quick alone is worth the extra gold, even with a relatively useless trait. I just recalled loyal peasants in several scenarios in "The South Guard". I haven't played the campaign and don't know how long it's going to go but I got one to lvl 3 and 2 to lvl 2 now so it's already saving money. Think that resilient/quick may also be saving money when you have a more advanced unit vs a slower and more fragile unit that you will be able to use on the 'front line' less frequently.
Another question is how much do you need a level 2 of this type. For example a Shaman is a unit which is hard to gain experience and a Druid very usefull. So experience here is more worth then on a Scout for example.
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I find shamans are easier to level...torangan wrote:Another question is how much do you need a level 2 of this type. For example a Shaman is a unit which is hard to gain experience and a Druid very usefull. So experience here is more worth then on a Scout for example.
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This depends on the map. Having good scouts is very useful on big maps, or when you have to keep your villages together while your army is walking towards your ennemy, leaving villages unprotected.Tmoiy wrote:They might be easier to level than scouts (I think they're about the same), but having a druid is more important than having a rider.appleide wrote:I find shamans are easier to level...
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Tux2B wrote:This depends on the map. Having good scouts is very useful on big maps, or when you have to keep your villages together while your army is walking towards your ennemy, leaving villages unprotected.Tmoiy wrote: They might be easier to level than scouts (I think they're about the same), but having a druid is more important than having a rider.
Scouts are essential to the game, especially anything bigger that a blitz map.
Although riders are useful, often times a scout can be used as a suicide sacrifice to buy time for the army to arrive.
a scout with alot of movement points can slip between enemy lines and take villages.
the opponent is left with two choices:
1.) Waste resources and time to take out the intruder
2.) Ignore the diversion and move forward to meet your army.
in option 1, the scout buys your army enough time to get properly set up or it delays the battle untill a more advantageous time of day.
in option 2, the scout can take more cities, sapping your enemy's income
forcing him to pull back.
Either way you win.
I have the same question "How much gold is xp worth and vice versa?", but for a different reason.
I'm new to Wesnoth, having just finished Tale of Two Knights and South Guard on easy difficulty and playing through Heir to the Throne. I know there are at least two main ways to play each scenario, finish as fast as possible and get lots of gold, or build up a strong, stable position against an opponent and farm xp to level up your units.
I have only done and prefer the play-style of completing each scenario as fast as possible, only collecting xp tacticly (as opportunity arrises, recalling units and avoiding casualties and killing as many units as possible before ending a scenario while ending on the fastest possible game turn, and dictating which units I want to get the "kill") and not as a strategy.
Thus I seem to end up with a lot of gold (1000-2000+) and lower level units than people talk about in the forums (I haven't seen a single Royal Guard yet having completed SG and someone talked about having six at an early point in the SG campaign (start of "Find the Elves" I think)).
I can't see how I would get 6 Royal Guards playing the way I want, and to be honest I think xp-farming should be an unnecessary strategy in the campaigns and that I should have the option to spend my gold somehow if I have a surplus. It might be unnecessary if I can complete the campaigns anyway, but I've only played the easier campaigns on easy difficulty so wouldn't know yet if I need experienced troops to complete the other campaigns and on harder difficulties but Im guessing that I would.
So put this way, I'd like an option to use my surplus "Gold bonus" for early completion instead of using an xp-farming strategy which would probably involve surrounding an opponent thats in a hopeless position and picking off level 1 troops with my current play-styles (and that would bore me).
The way that most makes sense would be if I could train troops in between levels, for gold, so paying x gold for y XP. But I don't know what x and y should be, and it might be different for different campaigns, scenarios and difficulties, the more veteran players should have a better idea of what x and y should be really, or how much xp they usually gain in a scenario then I can divide up half or all the gold bonus by that to get the amount I should "spend" on xp.
Anyway, thats the most glaring point in Wesnoth to me as a new player that makes Wesnoth less fun for "me" to play so far, that theres no fun/useful way for me to spend my gold surplus on Easy or any difficulty really. A training option or a "Buy these magic items for xx gold, Buy these Heroes for xx gold, Buy these unique mercenary units for xx gold, Spend xx gold on AMLAs/whatever" option in between scenarios, would make things more fun for me.
At the moment I'm thinking 1-2+ gold per 1 xp assigned by me or randomly between units, given how much gold I have. As its not an option in Wesnoth, I'll have to do it by "cheating" for now, and figure out how to edit the Saves to do it (I don't know how but I'm sure I can figure it out).
And I wonder has anyone else observed the same as me, that it would be good/fun to play the "complete scenario as fast as possible" way AND spend the extra gold you get? without it unbalancing the campaign and making it too easy? If some campaigns require you get more high-level units to complete (depending on skill obviously), then it makes sense to me anyway that you should be able to trade bonus gold for xp instead..
Also as some players write that they "go back scenarios to train up different units", if the save the game lets you make at the start of each scenario includes the option to redo training/buying/whatever with the gold you had at the start of that scenario, it would be possible to negate the "need to have to go back to train different", because you could spend gold to train or boost whatever your units the way you think you need for that scenario if you have problems with it another way.
Given thats the only thing that stands out in Wesnoth as less fun for me, that means that Wesnoth is really good :)
Traits are a niggle when for example you get Strong on a Mage or a dedicated long-range unit (and I'd prefer mage types to get something like "Powerful", +1 damage to magical attacks, instead of Strong) but being an inexperienced player I don't know whether theres a reason that Mages get Strong sometimes and not something like the made-up Powerful (e.g. game balance reasons), I just know that as a new player I'd prefer to get a trait like Powerful instead :)
Anyway its just a niggle because all sides in a scenario are affected equally by traits.
Long winding post, so if my other questions got lost basicly:
1) generally, how much xp is gold worth, if I want to "train" units xp for gold in between scenarios.
2) do you think it could be an option added to Wesnoth to be able to spend gold in between scenarios (on items, units, heroes, traits, training, anything you can think of) - maybe an optional option, so people can choose play current Wesnoth or Wesnoth with the extra option to spend gold in between levels. Probably should be a Poll really if anyone else than me is interested in that, and I dunno if its already been brought up before as an idea, chances are it has really and I've just not found it.
3) is there a game-balance reason for mage types to have Strong trait? if not, how about Powerful as an option instead? (like Dexterity for elves), and possibly disable Strong for mages? or do most players want Strong, Resilient mages? or would Powerful be unbalancing because magical attacks already have a 70% chance of hitting?
in case it goes "off-topic", 1) and 2) are by far most important to me personally and 3) isn't at all comparitively.
edit: there was another little niggle, during SG I couldn't choose between the Elvish Shyde's Slow-Impact and Magical-Piercing ranged attacks when counter-attacking ranged, I think the game just chose whichever did the most "damage" and ignored the special abilities, although Slow really doesn't do much if its used during an enemies go (it disappears immediately afterwards).
On the topic of traits, I dislike getting Strong on most non-melee units really, whereas Resilient is always useful, then you can get more use of the special low hp units.
I'm new to Wesnoth, having just finished Tale of Two Knights and South Guard on easy difficulty and playing through Heir to the Throne. I know there are at least two main ways to play each scenario, finish as fast as possible and get lots of gold, or build up a strong, stable position against an opponent and farm xp to level up your units.
I have only done and prefer the play-style of completing each scenario as fast as possible, only collecting xp tacticly (as opportunity arrises, recalling units and avoiding casualties and killing as many units as possible before ending a scenario while ending on the fastest possible game turn, and dictating which units I want to get the "kill") and not as a strategy.
Thus I seem to end up with a lot of gold (1000-2000+) and lower level units than people talk about in the forums (I haven't seen a single Royal Guard yet having completed SG and someone talked about having six at an early point in the SG campaign (start of "Find the Elves" I think)).
I can't see how I would get 6 Royal Guards playing the way I want, and to be honest I think xp-farming should be an unnecessary strategy in the campaigns and that I should have the option to spend my gold somehow if I have a surplus. It might be unnecessary if I can complete the campaigns anyway, but I've only played the easier campaigns on easy difficulty so wouldn't know yet if I need experienced troops to complete the other campaigns and on harder difficulties but Im guessing that I would.
So put this way, I'd like an option to use my surplus "Gold bonus" for early completion instead of using an xp-farming strategy which would probably involve surrounding an opponent thats in a hopeless position and picking off level 1 troops with my current play-styles (and that would bore me).
The way that most makes sense would be if I could train troops in between levels, for gold, so paying x gold for y XP. But I don't know what x and y should be, and it might be different for different campaigns, scenarios and difficulties, the more veteran players should have a better idea of what x and y should be really, or how much xp they usually gain in a scenario then I can divide up half or all the gold bonus by that to get the amount I should "spend" on xp.
Anyway, thats the most glaring point in Wesnoth to me as a new player that makes Wesnoth less fun for "me" to play so far, that theres no fun/useful way for me to spend my gold surplus on Easy or any difficulty really. A training option or a "Buy these magic items for xx gold, Buy these Heroes for xx gold, Buy these unique mercenary units for xx gold, Spend xx gold on AMLAs/whatever" option in between scenarios, would make things more fun for me.
At the moment I'm thinking 1-2+ gold per 1 xp assigned by me or randomly between units, given how much gold I have. As its not an option in Wesnoth, I'll have to do it by "cheating" for now, and figure out how to edit the Saves to do it (I don't know how but I'm sure I can figure it out).
And I wonder has anyone else observed the same as me, that it would be good/fun to play the "complete scenario as fast as possible" way AND spend the extra gold you get? without it unbalancing the campaign and making it too easy? If some campaigns require you get more high-level units to complete (depending on skill obviously), then it makes sense to me anyway that you should be able to trade bonus gold for xp instead..
Also as some players write that they "go back scenarios to train up different units", if the save the game lets you make at the start of each scenario includes the option to redo training/buying/whatever with the gold you had at the start of that scenario, it would be possible to negate the "need to have to go back to train different", because you could spend gold to train or boost whatever your units the way you think you need for that scenario if you have problems with it another way.
Given thats the only thing that stands out in Wesnoth as less fun for me, that means that Wesnoth is really good :)
Traits are a niggle when for example you get Strong on a Mage or a dedicated long-range unit (and I'd prefer mage types to get something like "Powerful", +1 damage to magical attacks, instead of Strong) but being an inexperienced player I don't know whether theres a reason that Mages get Strong sometimes and not something like the made-up Powerful (e.g. game balance reasons), I just know that as a new player I'd prefer to get a trait like Powerful instead :)
Anyway its just a niggle because all sides in a scenario are affected equally by traits.
Long winding post, so if my other questions got lost basicly:
1) generally, how much xp is gold worth, if I want to "train" units xp for gold in between scenarios.
2) do you think it could be an option added to Wesnoth to be able to spend gold in between scenarios (on items, units, heroes, traits, training, anything you can think of) - maybe an optional option, so people can choose play current Wesnoth or Wesnoth with the extra option to spend gold in between levels. Probably should be a Poll really if anyone else than me is interested in that, and I dunno if its already been brought up before as an idea, chances are it has really and I've just not found it.
3) is there a game-balance reason for mage types to have Strong trait? if not, how about Powerful as an option instead? (like Dexterity for elves), and possibly disable Strong for mages? or do most players want Strong, Resilient mages? or would Powerful be unbalancing because magical attacks already have a 70% chance of hitting?
in case it goes "off-topic", 1) and 2) are by far most important to me personally and 3) isn't at all comparitively.
edit: there was another little niggle, during SG I couldn't choose between the Elvish Shyde's Slow-Impact and Magical-Piercing ranged attacks when counter-attacking ranged, I think the game just chose whichever did the most "damage" and ignored the special abilities, although Slow really doesn't do much if its used during an enemies go (it disappears immediately afterwards).
On the topic of traits, I dislike getting Strong on most non-melee units really, whereas Resilient is always useful, then you can get more use of the special low hp units.
I think that if you play on medium or hard, you will find that you have no choice but to kill more units, and thus gain more xp for your units. For example, my first time playing, I played on medium, and without really paying too much attention to leveling units, I ended up with a level 3 and three level 2 units by then end of scenario 3. (Which I know is no great task, but like I said, it was my first time playing).Herald wrote: So put this way, I'd like an option to use my surplus "Gold bonus" for early completion instead of using an xp-farming strategy which would probably involve surrounding an opponent thats in a hopeless position and picking off level 1 troops with my current play-styles (and that would bore me).
Herald - short answer is quit playing Easy AI. On Difficult AI (and then against other players as you get better) there is no surplus gold - you will always wish you had more. 
I don't want to dismiss your long post as you obviously put a lot of though into it, but all your thoughts and questions are pretty much because you have only played a few games at easy level against the AI. You aren't challenging yourself at all and don't have a feel for the 'real' game.
Think of it this way - if you have a ton of gold left over at the end of the scenario, it took you WAY too long - much like if you had "wasted time" getting XP for your guys. You should have been using all that extra gold to buy more units and then been much more aggressive with them. You would have won the game a LOT sooner and wouldn't have a huge gold reserve left over.
You definitely need to stop playing Heir to the Throne on easy IMMEDIATELY. You are just wasting your own time. The easy AI is very easy, really only for your first game or for young kids who want to play. With all of the extra gold and questions you have you are obviously way above the Easy AI opponent. Your questions/complaints are like a 21 year old adult trying to evaulate why a foot race is so easy against a 5 year old kid. You need to race a 10 year old next (Medium AI), then a 16 year old (Hard AI) and then another 21 year old (a Human opponent). Then you will be in a position to evaluate things accurately.
Go play Tale of Two Knights or Heir to the Throne on Hard for comparison and then report back to us! You will answer most of your own questions and revise the rest. Then play online against an opponent - the AI is not bad for a free game but is still nothing compared to playing another player.
Not trying to sound hard or condesending at all - just trying to help!
I don't want to dismiss your long post as you obviously put a lot of though into it, but all your thoughts and questions are pretty much because you have only played a few games at easy level against the AI. You aren't challenging yourself at all and don't have a feel for the 'real' game.
Think of it this way - if you have a ton of gold left over at the end of the scenario, it took you WAY too long - much like if you had "wasted time" getting XP for your guys. You should have been using all that extra gold to buy more units and then been much more aggressive with them. You would have won the game a LOT sooner and wouldn't have a huge gold reserve left over.
You definitely need to stop playing Heir to the Throne on easy IMMEDIATELY. You are just wasting your own time. The easy AI is very easy, really only for your first game or for young kids who want to play. With all of the extra gold and questions you have you are obviously way above the Easy AI opponent. Your questions/complaints are like a 21 year old adult trying to evaulate why a foot race is so easy against a 5 year old kid. You need to race a 10 year old next (Medium AI), then a 16 year old (Hard AI) and then another 21 year old (a Human opponent). Then you will be in a position to evaluate things accurately.
Go play Tale of Two Knights or Heir to the Throne on Hard for comparison and then report back to us! You will answer most of your own questions and revise the rest. Then play online against an opponent - the AI is not bad for a free game but is still nothing compared to playing another player.
Not trying to sound hard or condesending at all - just trying to help!
Tips from the Guide on a more challenging experience:
* Consider starting the campaign on 'Medium' difficulty level, especially if you have prior experience with strategy games. We feel you'll find it much more rewarding.
* Don't sweat it too much when you lose some units. The campaign was designed to accomodate the player losing some units along the way.
* Don't abuse saved games. Long ago, Wesnoth only allowed saving the game at the end of a scenario. Mid-scenario saving was added as a convenience to use if you had to continue the game another day, or to protect against crashes. We do not recommend loading mid-scenario saved games over and over because your White Mage keeps getting killed. Learn to protect your White Mage instead, and balance risks! That is part of the strategy.
* If you must load a saved game, we recommend going back to the start of the scenario, so that you choose a new strategy that works, rather than simply finding random numbers that favor you.