Voting for new draug ability.

[SmokemJags]

Since the subject of balancing level 3 units is a hot topic, I thought a vote for the draug's new proposed ability would be appropriate.
Suggestions for re-balancing his stats (lowering hp, attack, that sort of thing) so he doesn't totally overpower other level three units should go here.

If you voted not to have him get this new ability, save your Draug stat balancing for the thread EP made about several of the main level 3 units.

Going by

Orcish Warlord: 76 HP, 17-3 melee, 7-2 ranged
Royal Guard: 70 HP (+ res.), 12-4 melee
Elvish Champion: 64 HP, 12-4 melee, 8-4 ranged

Stats I recommend

Draug: 56 HP (+ res.), 11-4 melee

For the Draug with this dread ability.

Lowest hp of the four (his mass resistances help cover that, as will this dread ability. And no matter how much HP he's going to get, holy and fire will still wtfpwn his face.)
Lowest attack... I'm debating this. Maybe 12-4 or 15-3...

[Tomsik]

I think this dread special(or ability) would be nice, but you won't get it into game with pools and majority vote. There's no democracy in wesnoth, there's oligarchy(devs), so you must get devs agree, not majority.

P.S.: I think such stats would be good for draug:

Code: Select all

Draug: 50 HP, melee 14-4 dread

Few HP, powerful attack(he's undead skeleton after all) with dread, so he would be nice unit for frontal assult, but bad one for defence.

[SmokemJags]

Why does everyone think that? People said the same thing about the night/day idea I had.
It's not supposed to be 'if this vote wins a majority you better put it in game'
It's supposed to be 'I want to see what people think about the idea, because I'm curious about feedback from both the developers and the people who play the game.'

I'm just looking for feedback.

Reducing his HP further and upping his damage more... that's an interesting approach.

[turin]

Simply concept-wise, I like the idea. I'd really like to see more units getting more diverse special abilities - makes the game more interesting. For example, having the only specials that represent a charging, maniacal warrior be charge and berserk (the latter of which's use is really discouraged) is kind of... boring.


Balance-wise, I don't care. I trust that the MP devs could balance it. And, really, I don't believe in campaign balance being very fine-grained... campaigns are balanced based on the scenario design, not the units. As long as the factions are balanced, campaigns will be balanced.

[Tippsey]

Hmm you said the dread ability halved incoming damage when he attacks. For fire damage this would make the draug laugh at them as if they were nothing, and as for holey it would mean holy just does normal damage back. So as long as the draug can be covered up after attacking, he could with with little difficulty trade blows even with paladins! This kidn of ability could easily make the deathblade obsolete. As who needs them when you can just drive over the opposition. Sure this would affect most multiplayer games little, but campaigns the main spot where lv 3's and 4's actually matter, it might be devestating, not to mention make things boring.

[SmokemJags]

For fire damage this would make the draug laugh at them as if they were nothing

I don't know of any units with a melee attack that is fire based damage...

he could with with little difficulty trade blows even with paladins!

What's the point of dread?
The draug would not worry attacking any unit. Even units tailored to take advantage of his weak resistances would be offset by the dread ability.

I don't see how it makes the deathblade obsolete. The deathblade is a significant increase in damage output over the revenant and is available at level 2.
The draug doesn't come around until about... 100 xp later after the revenant is chosen.
And the deathblade's focus is dealing additional damage. The draug's focus is more on survivability. Since when did increased survivability have anything to do with making additional damage obsolete?

If anything, it reinforces the draug is not a heavy damage dealer(if he gets dread, his attack will be reduced below pretty much every other level 3 'tank' type melee unit.) and that the deathdealer is the way to go for dealing damage with little to no focus on survivability.

[Tippsey]

1. For melee fire poke at goblin pillager. If you want we could just say impact as that's the same -20%. It still allows the dread to laugh at either kind of unit. So shock troops would lose their point to a degree.

2. Surviving is a key element of wesnoth, in both multiplayer, and campaign you must keep your units alive the best you can to have resources, or when needed sacrifice them for the biggest bang. In campaigns the draug would be the new god tank, and could preformthe job of melee smasher to such a degree that the deathblade looks like some cheap pet. The dread ability will allow the draug to attack all impact, and fire mellee creatures with no threat to itself, somethign that would be suicide for a deathblade. So in getting dread the Draug becomes the why do you need heavy ranged for shock troopers send in the draug. Got a footpad problem, draug it! Goblins smacking you around DRAUG IT! So yes in campaignss I can see this starting draug armies that laugh at deathblades, and perhaps even soulshooters, letting spectres, and adept line units to march with them.

[SmokemJags]

It's a problem when I can't tell if you're against the idea, because from where I'm sitting, you're highlighting all of the best parts that make dread what it is.

As for the Goblin Pillager... heh just shows you how often I choose him instead of going for the Knight to get the Dire Wolf.
Are there other fire melee units?
And really, how often do you attack a draug in melee dread or no dread? You usually throw ranged units at him.
Dread wouldn't change that, he's still just as vulerable on the defensive.

I wouldn't call half damage 'no threat' though, that's pushing it.
If he takes on a dwarven lord, at any time of day or night...
17x2 + impact resist yields about 20 damage per hit, 40 total.
Halve that, 10 damage per hit.
Draug has less than 60 hp.
If both hit, that's 1/3 of a level 3's health in 2 hits.
Without dread, it would be 2/3 of his health in 2 hits.

[Cuyo Quiz]

Up the Deathblade's damage?. I mean, if everyone has been buffed up...

EDIT: In any way, i still like the Dread idea.

[SmokemJags]

I don't think making the deathblade 9-5 is necessary.

There is only one other level 2 unit with 5 attacks; the duelist. He only does 5 damage per hit and though he has a ranged attack, his resistances are significantly lower, except to holy and fire.

Considering units like the orcish warrior (10-3), swordsman(8-4), javelineer (8-3 first strike with 11-2 range), duelist (5-5 with 12-1 range), and elvish hero at (8,4) I think the deathblade is just fine at 8-5 and is in no way threatened by this proposed draug ability.

[Mythological]

The fire drake has 5 ranged attacks.
I am for the idea of the new ability and I voted yes.
But I must say that balancing a unit with such an ability, especialy when it is a unit that has such diverce resistances and vulnerabilities like the draug would be very difficult. For instance a lawful spearman, if my math is correct would do 1-3 damage when defending from the draug at night ; level 2 pikeman would do 2-3 etc.

The way I see it the dread ability would make a unit a half (50%) more powerful then the same unit without that ability so to make the draug balanced both it's hitpoints and damage potential should be reduced by 15% they have ATM, which may make the draug look more like a revenant with a special ability. Neverthelss, the idea is good and it'll make the people that choose the draug as a leader use it more frecfently in the attack, which will give the oponnent more oportunities to kill it. It would improuve gameplay a bit, especialy the campaigns.

[Leo]

May be make this opposite of steadfast (double res. when attacking)? Only question arise how we can handle holy damage negative res. in this case

[Elvish_Pillager]

In campaigns the draug ... could preform the job of melee smasher to such a degree that the deathblade looks like some cheap pet.

Of course, as it should. A higher level unit should be more powerful. Why do you people keep comparing the Deathblade to the Draug as if they should be equal?

So in getting dread the Draug becomes the why do you need heavy ranged for shock troopers send in the draug.

Send in the draug, at night, pound a shock trooper, take ~8 damage, deal ~14 damage.

Next turn, the Shock Troopers whack you for about ~16 damage each and again you deal ~14 to each in retaliation. A Draug still can't beat two Shock Troopers, not even at night. In fact, the Draug is still weak to Shock Troopers - two draugs probably wouldn't beat three troopers, and in Day, three draugs wouldn't beat three troopers.

[Tippsey]

Actually one should be able to compare them. The javelineer can still be useful even with royal and habs running around. A pillager is quite useful even when dire is running around. So even with the new god tank running around the deathblade should have some kind of role. As for shocktroopers all one has to do is send a draug or two and an adept against a shock and well there draug as the damage shows would be hunky dorry. Sure they can't steamroll during the day but at night they make the undead retaliation quitea new and harder to beat threat!

[Elvish_Pillager]

Actually one should be able to compare them. The javelineer can still be useful even with royal and habs running around. A pillager is quite useful even when dire is running around. So even with the new god tank running around the deathblade should have some kind of role.

There are also counterexamples. Lancer vs. Grand Knight is a perfect parallel - the Grand Knight is tougher, more generally useful, has a more frontloaded attack and a less risky one, etc, while the Lancer is a very specific-use unit that does its thing just slightly better than the Grand Knight but is horrible in all other comparisons.

Like the Lancer, the Deathblade would have a slightly more powerful but less frontloaded melee attack than the Draug, be faster, and be much less resilient.

As for shocktroopers all one has to do is send a draug or two and an adept against a shock and well there draug

Well, if you have to send up to two Draugs and an Adept to get rid of a mere level 2 shock trooper, then something's pretty screwed up with your strategy.

Where did this whole shock trooper situation come from anyway?

Sure they can't steamroll during the day but at night they make the undead retaliation quitea new and harder to beat threat!

Sure, because an Undead player usually gets a Draug in the average MP game.