Costs for level 2 & 3 (& 4) units

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Postby Disto » October 17th, 2005, 4:50 pm

I'm not too worried as the only times i get lots of lvl 2s and 3s are when the AI is stupidly stronger then you :P.
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Postby Elvish_Pillager » October 17th, 2005, 8:35 pm

:shock: right. The majority of the enemies in Unrest in Elfland recruit only level 2's...

EDIT: The cursory correction is a 10% increase in the enemies' gold values, except in the last scenario which is probably not balanced anyway. I should playtest my campaigns again sometime instead of gallivanting off to try some new challence in HttT...
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Postby Soliton » December 19th, 2005, 9:33 pm

Hi,

Elvish Pillager could you post the formula you used to determine the costs?

I would like to go over the costs of the higher level units again and streamline them (as well as some of the monsters cost).
In my opinion a units cost is basically determined by the base units cost and the XP required to level into it (maybe multiplied by a factor involving parameters that make XP more valuable for some units than for others).
From this follows that for example branches should cost the same, as you can get them for the same amount of XP. In particular the Merman Hunter's upgrades have very different costs in your list which seems illogical to me.
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Postby Sapient » December 20th, 2005, 2:52 pm

Code: Select all
Sky Drake: cost: 25 -> 30

You're increasing the cost of the Sky Drake? I think that is quite possibly the worst level two unit in the game. I'd rather have a level 1 gryphon: it's stronger, has more hp, and lower upkeep, and better terrain defenses. A sky drake is a waste of gold as it is.
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Postby Soliton » December 20th, 2005, 3:45 pm

Hi!

Ok, I've been going through the units at http://units.wesnoth.org and compiled the following list of changes I would like to implement soon.

I would like some comments from campaign developers especially Turin.
The changes for campaign only units and monsters are mainly for consistency's sake and probably not of any concern.

Code: Select all
Drake Flare: cost: 37 -> 35
Drake Flameheart: cost: 56 -> 51
Drake Gladiator: cost: 29 -> 31
Sky Drake: cost: 25 -> 30
Hurrican Drake: cost: 35 -> 40
Dwarvish Stalwart: cost: 27 -> 32
Dwarvish Sentinel: cost: 38 -> 41
Dwarvish Runemaster: cost: 115 -> 60
Elvish Ranger xp 80 -> 90
Elvish Avenger melee 9-4 -> 8-4
   cost: 65 -> 60
Elvish Marksman: cost: 40 -> 41
   xp 90 -> 80
Elvish Hero xp 80 -> 90
   cost: 31 -> 32
Elvish Champion: cost: 56 -> 55
Elvish Lord: cost: 32 -> 36
Elvish High Lord: cost: 40 -> 60
Elvish Rider: cost: 35 -> 31
Elvish Outrider: cost: 48 -> 43
Elvish Druid: cost: 39 -> 34
Elvish Sorceress: cost: 41 -> 34
Elvish Enchantress hp 47 -> 50
   cost: 50 -> 55
Elvish Sylph hp 55 -> 58
Goblin Pillager: cost: 28 -> 32
Direwolf Rider melee 5-2 -> 4-4 poison
Dragoon xp 130 -> 110
Cavalier: cost: 48 -> 52
Necromancer: cost: 28 -> 32
Lich: cost: 45 -> 50
Dark Sorcerer: cost: 40 -> 50
Dark Queen: cost: 14 -> 35
Elder Mage: cost: 200 -> 65
Gryphon Master: cost: 30 -> 37
Paladin: cost: 52 -> 58
Lancer: cost: 38 -> 40
White Mage: cost: 44 -> 40
Red Mage: cost: 36 -> 40
Arch Mage: cost: 54 -> 59
Silver Mage: cost: 61 -> 59
Mounted Fighter: cost: 100 -> 25
Mounted Warrior: cost: 100 -> 38
Horse Lord: cost: 100 -> 50
Noble Youth: cost: 100 -> 10
Noble Fighter: cost: 35 -> 20
Noble Commander: cost: 42 -> 38
Noble Lord: cost: 150 -> 60
Outlaw Princess: cost: 50 -> 40
Outlaw Queen: cost: 150 -> 55
Swordsman: cost: 24 -> 25
Pikeman xp 80 -> 65
Halbardier: cost: 42 -> 44
Javalineer: cost: 23 -> 25
Longbowman: cost: 30 -> 26
Princess: cost: 110 -> 39
Battle Princess: cost: 110 -> 60
Warrior King: cost: 100 -> 40
Youth: cost: 100 -> 8
Fighter: cost: 35 -> 18
Commander: cost: 42 -> 36
Lord: cost: 150 -> 65
Saurian Soothsayer: cost: 29 -> 27
Mermaid Priestess: cost: 42 -> 38
Merman Warrior: cost: 30 -> 28
Merman Hoplite: cost: 38 -> 43
   fire resistance -20% -> 20%
   melee 13-2 -> 15-2
Merman Netcaster: cost: 38 -> 27
Merman Entangler: cost: 53 -> 46
Cuttle Fish: 28 -> 40
Fire Dragon: cost: 200 -> 100
Giant Scorpion: cost: 40 -> 32
Giant Spider: cost: 48 -> 55
Sea Serpent: cost: 80 -> 40
Tentacle of the Deep: cost: 15 -> 12
Yeti: cost: 30 -> 80
Orcish Leader: cost: 120 -> 20
Orcish Ruler: cost: 120 -> 35
Orcish Sovereign: cost: 120 -> 50
Sea Orc: cost: 20 -> 12
Great Troll: cost: 38 -> 48
Troll Rocklobber: cost: 27 -> 29
Ancient Lich: cost: 180 -> 100
Dark Spirit: cost: 54 -> 60
Death Knight: cost: 39 -> 45
Wraith: cost: 40 -> 38
   xp 150 -> 100
Spectre: cost: 53 -> 52
Shadow: cost: 40 -> 38
Necrophage: cost: 24 -> 27
Initiate: cost: 25 -> 20
Deathmaster: cost: 25 -> 36
Demilich: cost: 30 -> 60
Dread Lich: cost: 180 -> 105
Skeletal Dragon: cost: 180 -> 100
Deathblade: cost: 35 -> 28
Vampire Lady: cost: 44 -> 60


Edit: changed cost of Troll Rocklobber instead of Troll
Last edited by Soliton on December 20th, 2005, 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby turin » December 20th, 2005, 3:52 pm

I have two comments.

1. The Dragoon change is very welcome. It has always seems seemed to me that the Dragoon takes too much XP to upgrade to a unit that is not all that much better than it.

2. Only 27 gold for the Troll seems low. I suspect you changed it because the troll takes so little XP to upgrade, but I still think it might be unbalanced.
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Postby Soliton » December 20th, 2005, 6:02 pm

Sapient wrote:
Code: Select all
Sky Drake: cost: 25 -> 30

You're increasing the cost of the Sky Drake? I think that is quite possibly the worst level two unit in the game. I'd rather have a level 1 gryphon: it's stronger, has more hp, and lower upkeep, and better terrain defenses. A sky drake is a waste of gold as it is.


Have you even looked at the stats of the Sky Drake? It has 50% defense on all but cave. I don't think they are so different in power. Also balancing is done faction wise so you can't easily compare those two units.

Anyway it's just the first time going through the whole list, I don't expect it to be perfectly consistent and balanced just yet. :wink:
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Postby wisdomless » December 20th, 2005, 7:22 pm

Doesn't seem bad... But hey, I'm no dev.
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Postby Sapient » December 21st, 2005, 4:12 pm

Soliton wrote:Have you even looked at the stats of the Sky Drake? It has 50% defense on all but cave. I don't think they are so different in power. Also balancing is done faction wise so you can't easily compare those two units.


Ok, well I don't claim to be a balancing expert or anything, but it doesn't take an expert to notice that level 2 sky drakes are worse than level 1 gryphons. I stand by my earlier statement that the gryphon has better terrain defense. It get's 60% on mountains, and if you're a flying unit, it is very easy to end on a mountain.

Also, after taking a look at their damage resistances, gryphons have better net damage resistances. Even worse, sky drakes have a huge weakness to cold damage, which more than offsets (in my opinion) their fire resistance.

I was wrong about my earlier statement on HP, though. Resilient gryphons do have more hp than a standard sky drake, which was probably what confused me. However, perhaps the biggest advantage is the continued savings of gold and the ease of leveling up the gryphon if it kills the sky drake.

Regarding the melee-only penalty... A flying unit is a poor choice to hold ground, and is better used as reserve damage to swoop in for the kill. Having said that, a sky drake that focused only on ranged attacks might be more useful. Or maybe the unit should be eliminated altogether.
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Postby Soliton » December 21st, 2005, 5:33 pm

Hi,

changes committed.
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Postby Elvish_Pillager » December 22nd, 2005, 9:37 pm

*cheers*

Hooray for Soliton.

:D :D :D
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Postby Kharn » January 20th, 2006, 3:10 am

I generally scanned the last 6 pages and im wondering if you could either post a link to a place for download or post how you formulate these.

I think it would be very usefull not only for creating players but also as a program included in wesnoth (unit maker) that estimates the cost of a unit you made for you, eliminating much time spent balancing.
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