What do people think of the traits system?
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Christophe33
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- Joined: January 21st, 2004, 1:10 am
- Location: San Diego, CA
I also think that strong and resilient shoulddn't be changed significantly... a % bonus would be too powerful for some units. On the other hand a change to % for intelligence would be usefull for all units and make it more worthwhile. It doesn't affect the function of the unit by itself and lost its effect when the unit reach its maximal level.
Loyal is fairly usefull in some scenario with few villages and when you don't have much money. Maybe it could be boosted a bit more by giving loyal units an extra bonus when near a leader. By the way, what is the exact bonus of leadership on adjacent units. it is not explained and I saw that it increases the domage of the units but I don't know if it is a fix amount or a %.
The bonus of quick is not linear, it tends to be better for slow units than for fast one. A key number for elf fantassin units is a move of 6. It allows them to move 2 hex in water or mountain against only 1 hex if they have a move of 5. In the Ford of Abes scenario I choose only units with a move of 6 or more to go in the water (plus 4-5 mermen). Otherwise they are totally useless. I have no problem to trade extra speed for a few less HP in this condition...and of course it can be ofset by combination with strong or resilient.
Loyal is fairly usefull in some scenario with few villages and when you don't have much money. Maybe it could be boosted a bit more by giving loyal units an extra bonus when near a leader. By the way, what is the exact bonus of leadership on adjacent units. it is not explained and I saw that it increases the domage of the units but I don't know if it is a fix amount or a %.
The bonus of quick is not linear, it tends to be better for slow units than for fast one. A key number for elf fantassin units is a move of 6. It allows them to move 2 hex in water or mountain against only 1 hex if they have a move of 5. In the Ford of Abes scenario I choose only units with a move of 6 or more to go in the water (plus 4-5 mermen). Otherwise they are totally useless. I have no problem to trade extra speed for a few less HP in this condition...and of course it can be ofset by combination with strong or resilient.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!
Yeah, quick is most useful with slow or high level units with lots hp that can absord the loss then it becomes really good or like you say where it gets you an even number of movement points so you can do more than one move over water. That defeats what dave is saying about traits becoming less important as you get higher level
though because quick and loyal specifically become oh so much better.
The other thing i'd say about quick is that it means as well as its not just actually -3 hp but also you lose out on the hp you could of got with one of the more combat orientated traits so quick intelligent/loyal compared to a strong resiliant unit you've got -12 which is really huge.
Loyal might balance out in multiplayer over several games but people will only remember the games they lose because they get all loyal troops and the other gets none :). Its like your just randomly giving one side stronger troops which is hmmn.
I see what you mean about % increases being too powerful on higher level units though, I hadn't really considered that.
though because quick and loyal specifically become oh so much better.
The other thing i'd say about quick is that it means as well as its not just actually -3 hp but also you lose out on the hp you could of got with one of the more combat orientated traits so quick intelligent/loyal compared to a strong resiliant unit you've got -12 which is really huge.
Loyal might balance out in multiplayer over several games but people will only remember the games they lose because they get all loyal troops and the other gets none :). Its like your just randomly giving one side stronger troops which is hmmn.
I see what you mean about % increases being too powerful on higher level units though, I hadn't really considered that.
Loyal obviously does become better, and is in fact useless at level 1. This is by design, so that a player can choose to concentrate on advancing their loyal units -- their weakest units at level 1, hoping they will get payoffs for it later.telly wrote:That defeats what dave is saying about traits becoming less important as you get higher level
though because quick and loyal specifically become oh so much better.
The overall value of a unit can probably be surmised by their movement times their combat strength, and so 'quick' does indeed become much more powerful at higher levels. Unlike loyal though, it's also very good at level 1.
Perhaps a solution would be to make the hp penalty for quick units a % -- maybe 10%. That way, quick wouldn't be quite so bad for fast first level units, but it would hold a more severe limiting power on higher level units.
Even in a single game, it is unlikely that one player is going to get all loyal troops and the other player gets none. In almost any multiplayer game, each player will bring at least a dozen units to bear before the game is decided, and that is enough to make large abberations in trait distribution unlikely.telly wrote: Loyal might balance out in multiplayer over several games but people will only remember the games they lose because they get all loyal troops and the other gets none. Its like your just randomly giving one side stronger troops which is hmmn.
Factors such as your starting position (if playing a random map), and your first few combat rolls will make a much bigger difference than the traits your units get.
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
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Christophe33
- Posts: 826
- Joined: January 21st, 2004, 1:10 am
- Location: San Diego, CA
A solution to improve loyal unit, both in campaign and in multiplayer would be to give them a maintenance cost of 0 at first level then 1 at level 2 and higher. Or use a formula to have the cost divided by 2 and rounded down:
Then lvl 1 cost 0
lvl 2&3 cost 1
lvl 4 cost 2
In multiplayer mode, there will be a saving of 1 $ per loyal unit per turn, meaning that you might get more units later on the game.
Then lvl 1 cost 0
lvl 2&3 cost 1
lvl 4 cost 2
In multiplayer mode, there will be a saving of 1 $ per loyal unit per turn, meaning that you might get more units later on the game.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!
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RavenBlack
I very much like the traits, but especially like the ideas someone (or two) suggested for reducing the randomness inherent in it. Offering two random units of the type hired would be quite nice; having a pool of *all* units for hire (akin to the recall list) would also be very good. As I envision it, you'd get units with traits from the pool, and if you want to recruit more elven fighters (say) than there are in the recruitment pool, you can get more but they won't have any traits.
Another possibility that would be pretty nice if you end up adding more traits (but probably silly with the few you have currently) would be to give each recruit one random trait and let the player select the other trait (as a 'training' sort of thing). Or let you select one and then assign the other randomly, but that seems less interactive, and thus less fun.
On a more opiniony less suggestiony note, I don't like getting the intelligent trait or the loyal trait, am fairly indifferent to quick (the army only moves at the speed of its slowest unit, so quick is of little use unless an inherently slow unit or a fast unit that isn't intended to be part of the combat gets it), and I like getting strong and resilient. Some nonexistant traits I'd quite like to get, similar to quick, would be a "pathfinder" ability, reducing the movement penalty for rough terrain (bit naff for elves though), and a "swimmer" trait reducing the movement penalty and improving the defence rating in water (which would obviously be insane for mermen).
Another possibility that would be pretty nice if you end up adding more traits (but probably silly with the few you have currently) would be to give each recruit one random trait and let the player select the other trait (as a 'training' sort of thing). Or let you select one and then assign the other randomly, but that seems less interactive, and thus less fun.
On a more opiniony less suggestiony note, I don't like getting the intelligent trait or the loyal trait, am fairly indifferent to quick (the army only moves at the speed of its slowest unit, so quick is of little use unless an inherently slow unit or a fast unit that isn't intended to be part of the combat gets it), and I like getting strong and resilient. Some nonexistant traits I'd quite like to get, similar to quick, would be a "pathfinder" ability, reducing the movement penalty for rough terrain (bit naff for elves though), and a "swimmer" trait reducing the movement penalty and improving the defence rating in water (which would obviously be insane for mermen).
I propose a minor change in trait system. The unit will still have a maximum of 2 traits, but like this:
0lvl units = 0 traits
1lvl units = 1 trait
2+lvl unit = 2traits
When advancing a level, player can have a choice between 2 random traits. This way it is still random, but player has some control over what he likes/dislikes.
0lvl units = 0 traits
1lvl units = 1 trait
2+lvl unit = 2traits
When advancing a level, player can have a choice between 2 random traits. This way it is still random, but player has some control over what he likes/dislikes.
Milan Babuskov
http://home.gna.org/vodovod
http://home.gna.org/vodovod
This is all very well to say, but most traits that people have suggested sound awkward and/or confusing, or over-powered. I have heard very few good suggestions for new traits.Mortifer wrote:I think that we need lot more traits!
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Traits I am interested in implementing:Boucman wrote:yes... that's why I think that semi-choosen traits won't work for the moment...
the wise trait sounded usable to me though....
- brave: gives the unit an advantage vs units that are higher level than it.
- wise: gets 1*level xp for units that are killed next to it
- zealous (not for neutral units): increases the effect of day/night on this unit.
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
No they can't -- they need to be coded, including zealous. This is basically so for any trait that doesn't involve simple modifications to a unit's stats.Boucman wrote:except for zealous, they can't be implemented easily with the current WML trait system (i think)
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
