Elvish Cataphract Proposal

[Dave]

*Ahem* Other archers aside - how does this one look?

Sorry

Your archer actually does look good.

Would it be possible to do an animation for the Elvish Scout and Outrider?

Thanks,

David

[Sangel]

Yes, now that the exact animation is finalised, animating the Scout and Outrider shouldn't pose too many problems. I'll post them in a new topic when I'm done.

Now - shall we sort out the (Cataphract? Gladerider?) statistics in preparation for inclusion?

[Dave]

I prefer Gladerider.

At this stage imo the improvement should mostly focus around a better ranged attack.

David

[Sangel]

Gladerider would make sense, as "Cataphract" carries the connotations of very lethal cavalry, in my mind.

How about -

Elvish Gladerider
Move 10 HP 52
Sword (Blade) 7-4
Bow (Pierce) 8-4

Compared to the Avenger's 10-5 and 11-4 and 60HP, this seems reasonable. Do we want to give the Gladerider Ambush and/or "Hit and Run"?

[Guest]

I prefer Gladerider.

At this stage imo the improvement should mostly focus around a better ranged attack.

David

Agreed.

Cataphract is normally associated with heavily-armoured (hence slow- moving) lancer units, albeit often with a powerful bow.

Elven cataphracts could be different from "normal cataphracts", but "Gladerider" appears a much better solution.

Earlier suggestion of unicorn as a mount made me wonder about adding a small "charge" attack for the unicorn's horn, but that would probably make the unit too powerful.

[Dave]

Earlier suggestion of unicorn as a mount made me wonder about adding a small "charge" attack for the unicorn's horn, but that would probably make the unit too powerful.

Long ago Outriders had a charge attack.

They were too powerful

David

[Christophe33]

You could conceive for some of the unti fighting on horseback without lance a charge attack that gives a bonus of only 30 to 50%. This is a reasonnable bonus for using weapon less optimal than a lance.... an the counter-attack could still be 100%.

[Sangel]

No thanks. I don't want a "bonus" which gives the enemy more damage than it gives me!

[Darth Fool]

You could conceive for some of the unti fighting on horseback without lance a charge attack that gives a bonus of only 30 to 50%. This is a reasonnable bonus for using weapon less optimal than a lance.... an the counter-attack could still be 100%.

Elves should not get a charge attack. Charging attacks require stirups to enable the rider to take advantage of the horse's (or whatever's) momentum to deal extra damage. This is why cavalry in the time of the roman empire and preceding it was generally not used to great effect. The knights of the middle ages were in many ways an offshoot of the development of the stirrup which drastically improved the riders ability to attack from horseback, and enabled the use of charges with lances that didn't result in knocking the knight right off the back of the horse.

Unless elves in wesnoth do not ride bare-back, this would be a problem for them.

[Loriel]

Elves should not get a charge attack. Charging attacks require stirups to enable the rider to take advantage of the horse's (or whatever's) momentum to deal extra damage. This is why cavalry in the time of the roman empire and preceding it was generally not used to great effect. The knights of the middle ages were in many ways an offshoot of the development of the stirrup which drastically improved the riders ability to attack from horseback, and enabled the use of charges with lances that didn't result in knocking the knight right off the back of the horse.

Unless elves in wesnoth do not ride bare-back, this would be a problem for them.

I think the problem is overstated.

There are instances of effective lancers without stirrups - eg cataphracts, mounted companions of Alexander the Great.

Undoubtedly the addition of stirrups would have made them more effective, but I've read that absence of stirrups is actually more of a handicap to swinging a sword than to carrying a lance.

[Sangel]

Nevertheless, I don't think the Gladerider really needs a charge attack. Increasing its damage a little and beefing up its range attack should do fine.

[Sangel]

Code: Select all

[unit]
name=Elvish Gladerider
race=elf
image=elvish-gladerider.png
image_defensive=elvish-gladerider-defend.png
hitpoints=52
movement_type=woodland
movement=10
experience=500
level=3
alignment=neutral
advanceto=null
cost=70
usage=scout
   #mostly like a foot Elf, but they
   #aren't good at defending in villages
   [defense]
   village=60
   [/defense]

    #they are weak against piercing attacks
    [resistance]
    pierce=120
    [/resistance]
unit_description="Riding like the wind, Elvish Gladeriders breeze through the forests to strike at weaker units and exposed flanks. Equally skilled in both bow and sword, they strike hard before melting into the woods again to evade response."
get_hit_sound=groan.wav
	[attack]
	name=sword
	type=blade
	range=short
	damage=8
	number=4
    		[frame]
    		begin=-100
    		end=100
    		image=elvish-gladerider-attack.png
    		[/frame]
    		[sound]
    		time=-100
		sound=horse-canter.wav
    		[/sound]
	[/attack]
	[attack]
	name=bow
	type=pierce
	range=long
	damage=8
	number=4
		[sound]
		time=-100
		sound=firearrow.wav
		[/sound]

		[sound]
		time=0
		sound=arrow-hit.wav
		sound_miss=arrow-miss.wav
		[/sound]

		[frame]
		begin=-400
		end=-250
		image=elvish-cataphract-attack1.png
		[/frame]
		[frame]
		begin=-250
		end=0
		image=elvish-cataphract-attack2.png
		[/frame]

		[missile_frame]
		begin=-100
		end=0
		image=missile-n.png
		image_diagonal=missile-ne.png
		[/missile_frame]

	[/attack]
[/unit]

[Eponymous-Archon]

Seriously though, I think the archers in the game look good, I would just kinda like it if they pulled their bowstrings back further. It's not a big deal though. This also isn't the first time I've expressed this opinion.

I think you'll find that the longbowmen pull their bows back pretty far, but not to their cheeks. Regular archers usually pull back as far as their ear really, but lower, no?

[Eponymous-Archon]

Sorry, is Gladerider really a word (outside of fantasy literature)?

We've been pretty good about using real terms for units, and this would break that.

Cataphracts should be heavily armored, so that's probably out.

[Loriel]

Nevertheless, I don't think the Gladerider really needs a charge attack. Increasing its damage a little and beefing up its range attack should do fine.

Agreed.

And if you want justification for lack of a lance, other than "because it upsets the game balance", you can also use "lance would be major hindrance to rapid travel through forests".