Off to a rough start...

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Beleth
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Joined: October 11th, 2005, 6:22 am

Off to a rough start...

Post by Beleth »

Greetings, all! :D

I stumbled across the Battle for Wesnoth a few days ago and decided that it's been a while since the last good turn based strategy game I played and decided to give the game a whirl. So far, it's turned out to be incredibly enjoyable! This is far from the first strategy game I've played and I'm finding that Wesnoth has it's own unique flavor and feel. It's quite surprising, I must say, and I'm torn between finding it refreshing and frustrating - "What? You mean I have to learn something new? Bah!" :wink: I've been working my way through the first campaign (normal difficulty) with some success and some failure, getting used to the idea that forests are great for me and bad for my enemy while hills are great for my enemy and bad for me, trying out the different unit types, and so forth.

I have a few questions if some experienced players wouldn't mind taking the time to answer them...

1) I seem to always end up with roughly 100-110 gold when I go to the next scenario in the campaign. This never seems to be enough to get my war machine going at a reasonable level quickly enough. When my forces and the enemy's forces meet up I'm always significantly outnumbered, fall back, and have to wait for a gap in my enemy's formation to get a local numbers advantage. Do I need to manage my gold better or is this the right amount of gold to have between levels and I just need to get used to it?

2) Hand in hand with the above, I seem to be playing highly defensively throughout most of every scenario and enemy is almost always on "my side" of the map for most of the game. I'm not complaining (in fact, it's quite exciting!), but I'm wondering if this is typical or is it something that I need to work to be better at?

3) I seem to average four experienced units at the end of each scenario to take with me to the next scenario. This seems like just enough to be getting by in terms of having a strong starting line up, but I don't feel as if I'm overall making headway in getting a more experienced army. Is four experienced troops an okay number to be taking between scenarios, or do I need to be hitting more like six (or eight, or more)?

4) I'm definitely enjoying feeling out the different unit types and upgrades, though I'm curious if anyone has any suggestions as to particular types to get or avoid? Or what to level up first? My main order of business is to make sure that I have two leveled healers (usually Elvish Druids) and the other two are generally whatever archers, horsemen, fighters happen to have leveled up most recently. Also in this vein, how much should I worry about leveling up my commander? Whenever the enemy is close to the keep I keep him "indoors" to recruit more units, and when the enemy is far away it takes too many turns to move the commander, kill something, and then move back to the keep to recruit more units.

There's no substitute for experience, though guidance often makes it easier to get the experience... :wink: I've read the "Getting Started", Manual, Tactics, etc. sections of the site, though there's also no substitute for words of wisdom direct from the players.

Many thanks in advance for the hints, and I'm looking forward to many days of questing in Wesnoth!
Yogibear
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Re: Off to a rough start...

Post by Yogibear »

Well Beleth, welcome to Wesnoth!

1)
Within a campaign, the amount of gold to finish a scenario successfully varies a lot. I give you an example from "Heir to the throne". The first scenario is merely a "run away"-task. You might want to recruit a castle of units and let them gather some experience but the enemy forces a too strong to defeat them. Every now and then, there is similar scenarios, like for example "The Dwarven doors". To finish that, you don't need much gold.
"The siege of Elensefar" on the other hand is almost impossible to win with less than say 250-300 gold (depending on the level you are playing). So you need to accumulate enough gold before going there. A well balanced campaign allows you to do so. One of the best ways to collect gold is fulfilling the scenario objectives way ahead of time. Some scenarios are suited to do that if you got the right strategy (for example "The Isle of Anduin"). The bonus you get for that is dependant on the number of villages (turns below limit * number of villages).
I feel that with 100 gold you will get into serious trouble in most scenarios.

2)
I don't think so. Many scenarios start with you being outnumbered. Most of them require a certain strategy, a "trick", to win them. Sometimes you just have to survive the first wave of enemy units, putting up a good defense in a well chosen terrain. Sometimes you don't need to fight, just run. And sometimes you have to spend all your gold to match up with the enemy forces. But you are smarter than the AI :D . That makes you succeed, even if you are slightly outnumbered.

3)
Try to play "no losses". Loosing a unit every now and then is ok but you should avoid loosing experienced units. Your army should grow and get stronger from scenario to scenario. In difficult scenarios you sometimes have to sacrifice a bunch of freshly recruited level 1 units to protect the more advanced ones.

4)
Every unit has its strengths and weaknesses. Some scenarios require certain units. "The Siege of Elensefar" for example is hardly to master without having mages. Every scenario requires a different set of units, depending on terrain and enemy. So building up a force of many different units is not a bad idea.
Healers are important, especially if there are few villages. It's almost always a good idea to have them around.
Try to level up Konrad as soon as possible. It has a couple of advantages:
- He gets leadership, so with him being adjacent, lower level units do more damage.
- The AI concentrates on the weakest enemy. A strong Konrad focuses it on someone else.

To level him up, try to recruit all necessary troops in the beginning of the scenario. Then move him with the others, keep him covered and let him do some easy "finishing blows".

Good luck and have fun!
Smart persons learn out of their mistakes, wise persons learn out of others mistakes!
Quentin
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Post by Quentin »

for the number2 : Usually, while playing against a.i. in a "non-campaign map", i prefer being on the defensive and advancing prudently, in campaigns however, as you have a limited number of turns and a "finish early bonus" you have to be quite aggressive to do well.

for number 4: i advise you to level up units that join your army for free and have the "loyal" traits, as they won't cost you any upkeep. After that, you should try lo level almost any kind of units, as all can have their advantages in some battles.
As for you leader, try to level him to level 3 during the first few scenarios.
The advantage of having multiple high level units is that you can spend only one or two turns recalling and then move with your leader too.
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Kestenvarn
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Post by Kestenvarn »

4) I find Elvish Riders to be pretty useful when levelled up.

Also, if you level a Horseman, don't go the Lancer route. I'm not sure what the point of that unit even is...
Sly
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Post by Sly »

Kestenvarn wrote:4) I find Elvish Riders to be pretty useful when levelled up.

Also, if you level a Horseman, don't go the Lancer route. I'm not sure what the point of that unit even is...
It can kill strong units in one turn (13-3 charge, if the enemy is in a week position (say < 50% defense) he'll die)
Pythagoras
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Post by Pythagoras »

Sly wrote:
Kestenvarn wrote:4) I find Elvish Riders to be pretty useful when levelled up.

Also, if you level a Horseman, don't go the Lancer route. I'm not sure what the point of that unit even is...
It can kill strong units in one turn (13-3 charge, if the enemy is in a week position (say < 50% defense) he'll die)
Lancers are certainly good level 2 units, unfortunately the don't level to anything.
Beleth
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Re: Off to a rough start...

Post by Beleth »

Yogi Bear wrote:Well Beleth, welcome to Wesnoth!
Many thanks! Glad to be here... *grin*

I greatly appreciate your thoughts and feedback. Given what you said, I'm restarting the campaign from the beginning. In my current situation it seems at if I'm never going to dig myself out of the financial hole I'm in and the current buzz I'm getting from other posts seems to be that finishing the first scenario in 12 or 13 turns and getting the extra chunk of gold is the way to go.

I'm also trying to play the first scenario with getting a few of my units a couple of kills. I don't have any expectations of being able to get them up to level 2 at all; I'm just aiming at getting a few kills of level 2/level 3 enemies so that for the second scenario I'm positioned well for getting a few people to level 2. So far it's been quite frustrating - either my allies take the kills, or they surround wounded enemies so that I can't get to them. (Who invited them anyway? :wink: ) Or I get a few kills and then my guys get killed. It's definitely been a learning experience and I can still see that I have a ways to go before getting close to mastering this game (which is very enjoyable in its own right!).

Something I'm noticing is that randomness has a large effect on the gameplay and difficultly level in the scenario. I don't mean randomness in terms of whether or not you hit an enemy (which seems to be the biggest complaint about randomness in the forums), but rather in what the enemies choose to recruit. It seems to me that when my enemies recruit a large number of trolls it's significantly harder to beat them compared to when they don't have many trolls. Trolls have high hp, hit hard, and the regen is highly annoying. I'm not sure how much of this is build into the game versus me just needing to get better at it.

Anywho, here's to (yet) another attempt to escape the evil orcs! :D
unsung
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Post by unsung »

I can't really advise you abou tlevelling units up and such very well right now (other things on my mind), but in the first scenario, recruit wo scouts too take villages, then spend al remaing gold oon wahtever you want that isn't a scout sned th escouts south-towards blue- and snatch villages, bu tdon't defend them. send your other men either to yellow o rgreen and have at them, letting your AI allies suffer th elosses and dinishing of woundd units, while konrad goes to a spot oone hex from the sign post. once your men have gained a decent amount of xp, leave.

in th enext scenario if you feel a need fo rgold, use a lot of horsemen, and maybe recall some of your lefovers if they are close to level up. and also, make sure the loyal horseman lives and get him as much xp as you can.


oh, and about the horsemen- its cheaper to recruit them ahead of time for other scenarios and recall them, as they cost 23 gold.
Oh no look out its a ray gun.
You should move to avoid the rays
the rays are coming out of the gun
if you are hit by the rays
you will be shot by the rays
the rays are fast so you should be fast to
can you win against the fast rays from the gun?
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Post by Darth Fool »

I would point to a couple of things about advancing units. First, upgrading the elvish shaman line is definitely worth it. The big improvement is at level 3 where it becomes a shyde. Having one or more of these is a big improvement. Second, upgrading a couple of elvish fighters to the captain-marshal line is quite useful to do early in the campaign. Their leadership ability will make it easier to level up other units by giving boni to the low-level units' attacks. As far as using Konrad, my general rule of thumb is to try and level him early if possible, but don't risk too much to do so. When there is more than one castle/keep in a scenario, it is a good idea to castle hop, ie, when you get close to capturing a castle, take Konrad and move him to the new castle to recruit from there. Also, generally it is a good idea to stop recruiting about half way through a scenario, if you can. This will generally leave you plenty of gold to start the next one.
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turin
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Post by turin »

Halfway through?!?! I usually stop recruiting by turn 5. Although, on larger maps that is sometimes a bad move.
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Beleth
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Post by Beleth »

turin wrote:Halfway through?!?! I usually stop recruiting by turn 5. Although, on larger maps that is sometimes a bad move.
I'm guessing that this requires a significant beginning bank roll, though, to be able to get a few turns of full recruiting in, yes? I'm often in a position where I'm recruiting one unit per turn for most of the battle just to hold the line.
unsung
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Post by unsung »

I usually stop by the second tun, unless my castle has less than five hexes.


I'm sure that wil surprise and amaze at least..... 3 people. :P


beleth, if you are that low on gold: STOP MAKING BATTLE LINES! its exensive. get a small group of units and ikill the enemy leader. its very costs effective when you need gold. if you hav etrouble levelling up this way, then do everry other scenario.

fight to last turn for xp, next scenario, take level threes and some twos, rush leader with no lossses for gold.

of course, it'll be different in practice becasue for some reason I never had any problem lvelling up units and havin gthe gold I needed.

and you don't need a full army o flevelle dup units. 6 level twos by the fourth would e MORE than enough. one way to balance it out is too use all levelld up units to end it quickly, and let the xp go to you L2s making them levle up, and not recruiting anything new.
works often enough fo rme anyway....
Oh no look out its a ray gun.
You should move to avoid the rays
the rays are coming out of the gun
if you are hit by the rays
you will be shot by the rays
the rays are fast so you should be fast to
can you win against the fast rays from the gun?
Beleth
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Post by Beleth »

Progress! :D As posted above, I restarted the campaign today and I'm doing *significantly* better, thanks to reading the forums, rereading tactics articles, and screwing up completely now and then and getting to redo it all. All I can say is that I'm loving this game more and more and I play it!

I'm currently on Pearl Bay, I believe it's called, with 350 gold and seven level 2 characters. What a difference a few hundred gold makes!
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