Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

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Edwylm
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

here comes the fun part :annoyed: i'll just use a list for now, drawing on a map is going to be a pain. though I have a map for saurains and elves to point some things out.

major land races;
Dunfolk: The dunefolk can not "claim" desert lands. their territory would consist of the desert and surrounding areas as they are nomadic same with most other races in the deserts. The only true territory would be cities and around sources of water. No point in claiming wastelands unless there are resources to had.
saurains:Now I can see the impassable Jungles being on friendly terms with the elves, outside of that region i can still see both being hostile. For lands claimed look at the map i added in.
Elves: Elves in this region are going to be less dominate which is nice shift to other races that need love.
file.png
The impassable jungle it might be best to give each 1 side of the main river. If they are on friendly terms you would see elves and suarains living in each other's lands so do we really need to give both a "separate" territory no not really unless wanted.
However I would suggest having a united domain having more focus on both races working together on governing the region. Would be different than how the north works and don't have to figure over the territory dispute.

Dwarves: It wouldn't be hard to see dwarves in any mountains the only thing is why are they not in the mountains. if the mountain range is volcanic active yeah dwarves will not build there maybe to mine and it might cause the dwarves to travel above ground to gain the resources.
Trolls: Same with the dwarves
Ogres: I can see when where Celtic_Minstrel has suggested.

Orcs: The only way i can see orcs bring in this area is when during the rise of wesnoth when they were sailing to wesnoth. some ships could have blown southward or got lost and arrived here. The main problem i have is that the south orcs will have a different history/culture compared to the north. So if we want to avoid making 2 cultures, south orcs will not be a thing. Which to me it is Fine suarains need their love too and i feel like this might be the best region for it.

Minor land races;
Mudcrawler: where their might be mud
Jinn: ruins or in the desert
Fire Guardian: It be interesting to see Fire Guardians in the ashland desert.

Flying races; also note flying creature would use the desert to hunt the sentient races as there is no place to hide.
Drakes:They have wings and are able to travel/hunt great distances. if they are a dominate race than they will likely have by far the most extensive territory of the other races. best to have regions that are their roasts. But there are problems
Wyvern: Not known as much but are they considered a "dragon"? and do drakes and Wyverns fight? this would be a problem for placement of both these races, including the roc.
Dragons?: not sure but don't care as its a dragon they can live anywhere really unless told otherwise by lore.
bats:no need as they can live in caves,ruins and jungles. no need to "place territory for them".

aquatic races like naga and merfolk are spical in this case as they live along the coast. best to do them last.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

EDIT: accidental double post
Last edited by ghype on April 23rd, 2020, 9:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

So I did this before all these new comments rolled in. I have to catch up with most of them

I just want remind everyone that these territories are not "final". These are just the border you might encounters that race more frequently then in other places. Purpose of marking these territories was to decide where we put what kind of city/village...

note: I will revise this map once again once more opinions rolled in ...


New Irdya-Territories -3 .png


I marked most of what Celtic mentioned in his first comment. I also redraw the Dunefolk territory to make in a bit more clearer.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:54 pm
The mountains of Kesh ... That said, parts of these mountains should probably be roc territory, too.
I did not marked any roc territory yet as I think they shouldn't have one territory but generally have nests everywhere.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:54 pm
I'm not convinced on the orc territories you've marked in there.
I removed those and used the colour for Troll terrains instead of orcs.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:54 pm
I'm also not convinced on the clean split of the Impassable Jungle between elves and saurians.
In this draft , I made the border a bit more fluent. But as the newer suggestion rolled in, I too think that the mountains + jungle in east, those could be shared by drakes . That Elves maybe hide in the northern part of the big jungle. That way we get also a dynamic between drakes and Saurians.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:54 pm
For the southeast unassigned bit of mountain, with two little coastal bits of forest, perhaps that could be chiefly wyvern territory (along with a few trolls).
I did not marked the trolls there as I assume that they might be present in mountains generally and marked only where they came more frequently.

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:54 pm
Now that all my random rambling and speculation is finished, let me make an actual list of the races that I think should be placed (or at least considered for placement) in this region:
Bats we can assume they are in caves and do no needed marked terrains
Same goes for Mudcrawlers. Considering that Jinns are magical creatures, I thought that Jinn's might be able to summon or "create" Mud crawlers ... Simillarly they could also summon fire wisps. If has fire melee and magical fire ranged, then a Jinni should be able to summons those as well.
Woses I asume they share territory with elves, altough i think they can appear also without Elves. Maybe In the Jungles where elves are absent, Woses could have conflict with saurians or drakes.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:54 pm
As far as I understand, the origin story of the orcs doesn't lends itself well to placing them anywhere other than in the far north. That said, if that origin story is changed, or a reasonable explanation for southern orcs that doesn't contradict it is presented, then why not include the orcish cities in the Dunefolk Federation?
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 12:54 pm
Note that orcs is omitted from that list, though perhaps I could be convinced otherwise.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 6:20 pm
I'm still against putting orcs in the south at all, but open to arguments.
About that, quiet a topic. While orcs origin story was altered, the timeline of wesnoth wasn't. Meaning that Wesnoth has had it's golden age, then it's Silver Age and then Kapou’e came. Yumi suggested that the Golden age of the Dunefolk should take place while or after Wesnoth Silver Age. 670YW was the end of wesnoth silver age. Depending on how deep and long and flourishing Dunefolk Golden Age could be, the event's we follow in the campaing might take place 700 or even 800YW. At that time, it is not unrealistic that orcs wandered south ways with their ships, eventually reaching palmiya and just simple searching for new land for "causing trouble". So yeah, if orcs were to reach the southern parts of the great continent, then via ships and if then they would reach Palmiya.
Kwandulin wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 3:38 pm
I'm with Moony here. We should not place the same constellation of races in the south. The current suggestions sound too much like our ordinary Wesnoth has been transfered onto sand tiles. Having a stronger presence of lizard races in the south sounds good. Since drakes are known to need an inner flame to live in the north, we might have a good reason to place them in the southern mountains.
I too am agree that we should find ways to introduce new dynamics with factions such as drakes, saurians and nagas. I have some ideas of my own, but i will have to get throught the comments first.
Kwandulin wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 3:38 pm
Edit: do we really need to show every small river on the map?
I do not to attempt implementing every river into the world map. I just did here for demonstration purposes.
3Lorde wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 6:18 pm
By the way, "Ghype" wrote" Balck Forest" instead of the "Black Forest" or "Blackwoods" in the image map.


Thanks for noticing, will fix the typo.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 6:20 pm
(like the dwarf/troll alliance I suggested in thee mountains of Kesh)
That is something I like, it would be refreshing ...
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 6:20 pm
Perhaps elves only indisputably control those two small forests east of Al-Shirizad, with a nominal presence in the western jungle and some outposts (maybe trading posts) in the Impassable Jungle.
While I agree with not giving elves every jungle, I think the elves deserve a bit more than those small two forests you talk about.
I would give them a proper presence in the big western Jungle, but not full control. And some of the northern Jungles in the East.
The two jungles you were talking about, thats where they could have their trading outposts (between the two bigger jungelrs) and could have a bigger dominence of Woses (which could work as trolls/wyvers in the mountains north) might not be interested in Woses.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 6:20 pm
Dwarves don't have to be an exclusively subterranean race. They could have above-ground towns as well.
Did not have the time these last few days to keep up with the discussion so I'll just quickly chime in on this one small point: there is, in fact, already a dwarf clan portrayed in mainline (Shorbear clan in SoF). Their leader greets the protagonists with the line "Och, it's some o' them cave-dwarves." ;)
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

So i updated the territories according your comments.
Gave more terrain to drakes and saurians. Modified Elves and Merfolk Terrain.
Also gave Naga a bit more terrain.

We currently have 3 unassigned territories according to this version. I marked them with yellow numbers.

1. could be either again drakes or maybe dwarf?
2. my preferebly choice would be orcs (and on Palmiya too), but they might as well be trolls or drakes or what ever. If those mountains would be drakes territory than the exit/entrance of the bay would be pretty unsafe considering that drakes would fly around the water.
3. Dwarfs?


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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

Edwylm wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 6:55 pm
So if we want to avoid making 2 cultures,
Having two cultures is something that in my opinion is necessary for southern versus northern variants of any race. We don't necessarily need to define all the cultural differences, but there will be some.
Edwylm wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 6:55 pm
The only way i can see orcs bring in this area is when during the rise of wesnoth when they were sailing to wesnoth. some ships could have blown southward or got lost and arrived here.
Huh? Did the orcs arrive on the great continent by ship? If they did, then this explanation can work for some orc presence in the south. Whether that involves giving them actual territory, I don't know.
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 7:43 pm
I marked most of what Celtic mentioned in his first comment. I also redraw the Dunefolk territory to make in a bit more clearer.
Well, I don't see anything to object to on that map…
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 7:43 pm
I did not marked any roc territory yet as I think they shouldn't have one territory but generally have nests everywhere.
Sure.
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 7:43 pm
Bats we can assume they are in caves and do no needed marked terrains
Same goes for Mudcrawlers.
Makes sense, I just wanted to list everything I could think of to make sure nothing was missed. Note though that bats are not necessarily only in caves, they could very well be in the jungle too. Generally speaking, bats are not cave animals in the real world. They may roost in caves (or in hollow trees), but they hunt (usually insects) out in the open.
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 7:43 pm
Considering that Jinns are magical creatures, I thought that Jinn's might be able to summon or "create" Mud crawlers ... Simillarly they could also summon fire wisps. If has fire melee and magical fire ranged, then a Jinni should be able to summons those as well.
Hmm… supposing jinn can summon certain creatures is interesting. I'm not sure about mudcrawlers specifically, though - they seem somewhat antithetical to jinn. Jinn are creatures of smoke and fire and possibly air, mudcrawlers are creatures of earth and water - the exact opposite of fire and air (if you go by the Paracelsian idea that air and earth are opposites).
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 7:43 pm
Woses I asume they share territory with elves, altough i think they can appear also without Elves. Maybe In the Jungles where elves are absent, Woses could have conflict with saurians or drakes.
I think, more so than elves, woses are a fixture of forests, much like trolls might be a fixture of mountains. All large forests would have some woses. Small forests may have some too.
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 9:31 pm
So i updated the territories according your comments.
Gave more terrain to drakes and saurians. Modified Elves and Merfolk Terrain.
Also gave Naga a bit more terrain.
Not quite sure on those additional naga terrains in the south… my original idea was that merfolk have direct trading contact with the eastern saurians, but with this layout, that's no longer the case? (Not that it needs to be the case or anything, just observing.) Also, dumping the nagas right in the middle there at Al-Shirizad, between two merfolk territories, seems kinda weird.
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 9:31 pm
1. could be either again drakes or maybe dwarf?
Could be drakes. Could also just be troll mountains. I don't think I'd put dwarves here - it's a bit too close to Wesnoth for that, I think.
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 9:31 pm
2. my preferebly choice would be orcs (and on Palmiya too), but they might as well be trolls or drakes or what ever. If those mountains would be drakes territory than the exit/entrance of the bay would be pretty unsafe considering that drakes would fly around the water.
So this basically refers to the western reaches of the desert, the mountainous range between the desert and the salt marsh, and the mountain pass / badlands? Assuming orcs came in ships rather than through a portal, I suppose there could be some here. If there are orcs here, I recommend giving them different alliances. Instead of nagas and trolls, perhaps these orcs get along well with the saurians in the salt marsh and the drakes on Palmiya.
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 9:31 pm
3. Dwarfs?
Maybe I just don't understand your terrain colour scheme, but I don't get why you'd propose dwarves here. That said, I also think that this is fairly far out from the dunefolk sphere of influence, so we could also leave it unknown.
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Rears
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Rears »

And why are the ogres marked on the map as monsters?
And why is there nothing new on the continent besides new people, or is the screenwriter's fantasy over?
And why are all the standard races present on the new continent? How is it possible when it is less closed from the main Wesnothu

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Hejnewar »

Rears wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 5:31 pm
And why are all the standard races present on the new continent? How is it possible when it is less closed from the main Wesnothu
That's ok question.

Also Wyvern territory looks very small for species that I considered as very dangerous and well world shaping.

Edit: 100 posts.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Edwylm »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 1:32 pm
Edwylm wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 6:55 pm
So if we want to avoid making 2 cultures,
Having two cultures is something that in my opinion is necessary for southern versus northern variants of any race. We don't necessarily need to define all the cultural differences, but there will be some.
Edwylm wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 6:55 pm
The only way i can see orcs bring in this area is when during the rise of wesnoth when they were sailing to wesnoth. some ships could have blown southward or got lost and arrived here.
Huh? Did the orcs arrive on the great continent by ship? If they did, then this explanation can work for some orc presence in the south. Whether that involves giving them actual territory, I don't know.
Yes having 2 cultures is necessary for southern versus northern "variants" However if the orcs were to arrive in the south around tRoW Then the southern culture itself will be highly different compared to the north. If there were no liches to "command them" than they will have their culture started way before the north and being in a environment they are not adapted to would cause them to go in a extreme direction.
Examples In the south; There could be no Goblins as the harsh environment would limit their population early on. They could view/treat other races as life stock if food was limited. They could be slaves for the saurians or mercenaries for the dunefolk.

I'm not saying i am for or against having orcs in the south but I feel there are topics that need to worked out before deciding on orcs in the region.

the portal has its own flaws as why would female orcs be allowed to go though them if it be more efficient to have orc warriors to do the fighting... unless male orcs can't cook. But than why wouldn't they just open more portals for orcs to pass though back and forth. logistics needs to be considered.

Lastly the one thing that is bothering me is how much communications you want between north and south? If the people of wersnoth heard of the south they would try to send explorers to the south and possibly colonize or set up trade ports in the south. Do the south elves, dwarves, naga and merfolk maintain communications to the north or is there a clear reason why they don't have any influence in the north?

The impassable jungle i can see there would be issues and even conflicts that might arise do to that placement unless the elves are not that isolated to the east and north. What you have done is isolate them to a curtain degree and if the elves were to make the saurians mad or the saurians want to take over the rest of the jungle the elves would be a tough spot with chances that they can not win a war. The elves probably want contact with other elves or these elves are very secluded and do not want to deal with their kin. And since the impassable jungle is a place were the elves and saurians are friendly you need to justify their location.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 1:32 pm
Edwylm wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 6:55 pm
The only way i can see orcs bring in this area is when during the rise of wesnoth when they were sailing to wesnoth. some ships could have blown southward or got lost and arrived here.
Huh? Did the orcs arrive on the great continent by ship? If they did, then this explanation can work for some orc presence in the south. Whether that involves giving them actual territory, I don't know.
To that I can only reference this, note: heavy spoilers.
Spoiler:

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 1:32 pm
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 7:43 pm
Considering that Jinns are magical creatures, I thought that Jinn's might be able to summon or "create" Mud crawlers ... Simillarly they could also summon fire wisps. If has fire melee and magical fire ranged, then a Jinni should be able to summons those as well.
Hmm… supposing jinn can summon certain creatures is interesting. I'm not sure about mudcrawlers specifically, though - they seem somewhat antithetical to jinn. Jinn are creatures of smoke and fire and possibly air, mudcrawlers are creatures of earth and water - the exact opposite of fire and air (if you go by the Paracelsian idea that air and earth are opposites).
Well, the sprite displays it it with telekinetic abilities to raise rocks. So you could say that might be "earthy"? I assume it could also hold up rocks together to form a rock golem. Or to Hold sand together to for a "mud golem" out of sand. The Mud Crawlers could be mistaken to be made out of sand.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 1:32 pm
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 9:31 pm
So i updated the territories according your comments.
Gave more terrain to drakes and saurians. Modified Elves and Merfolk Terrain.
Also gave Naga a bit more terrain.
Not quite sure on those additional naga terrains in the south… my original idea was that merfolk have direct trading contact with the eastern saurians, but with this layout, that's no longer the case? (Not that it needs to be the case or anything, just observing.) Also, dumping the nagas right in the middle there at Al-Shirizad, between two merfolk territories, seems kinda weird.
Here the question raises to me, wether Merfolk economically are in conflict with Naga? Say if Naga "control" the cloud of bay and either helping or taxing the dunefolk when crossing with their ships, then wouldn't they want do the same in the south with the other Dunefolk outposts? But if the Merfolk are controlling that territory then there would be conflict, right? would such a conflict be wanted?

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 1:32 pm
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 9:31 pm
1. could be either again drakes or maybe dwarf?
Could be drakes. Could also just be troll mountains. I don't think I'd put dwarves here - it's a bit too close to Wesnoth for that, I think.
I'll let them share it for now, until we come up with something.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 1:32 pm
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 9:31 pm
2. my preferebly choice would be orcs (and on Palmiya too), but they might as well be trolls or drakes or what ever. If those mountains would be drakes territory than the exit/entrance of the bay would be pretty unsafe considering that drakes would fly around the water.
So this basically refers to the western reaches of the desert, the mountainous range between the desert and the salt marsh, and the mountain pass / badlands? Assuming orcs came in ships rather than through a portal, I suppose there could be some here. If there are orcs here, I recommend giving them different alliances. Instead of nagas and trolls, perhaps these orcs get along well with the saurians in the salt marsh and the drakes on Palmiya.
Sure, considering what I wrote int he spoiled section, that could work. Not all orcs have to be friendly or peaceful.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 1:32 pm
ghype wrote:
April 23rd, 2020, 9:31 pm
3. Dwarfs?
Maybe I just don't understand your terrain colour scheme, but I don't get why you'd propose dwarves here. That said, I also think that this is fairly far out from the dunefolk sphere of influence, so we could also leave it unknown.
Well those are mountains. But yeah, leave them unknown. Sure.


New Irdya-Territories -7 .png

Rears wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 5:31 pm
And why are the ogres marked on the map as monsters?
I just marked them as an auxiliar race (just as Wyverns) because I was running out of colours and it might get too messy.
Rears wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 5:31 pm
And why is there nothing new on the continent besides new people, or is the screenwriter's fantasy over?
And why are all the standard races present on the new continent? How is it possible when it is less closed from the main Wesnothu
The current territories are just marked to be able to finish the map, so we place villages. yumi and me even considered to add "new non human races" as well, but those would be campaign exclusive if at all. Many of the factions in south vill differ a bite visually and unit wise. So it won't be exactly the same as the north. Further more, we have dunefolk as a new race and dunefolk will also have some sub-factions have across the campaigns.
Hejnewar wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 5:51 pm
Also Wyvern territory looks very small for species that I considered as very dangerous and well world shaping.
It is just the territory they are predominantly, close to the dunefolks. They can appear anywhere though.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Hejnewar »

Many of the factions in south vill differ a bite visually and unit wise.
That's gonna be interesting. But it would be good to leave some space for UMC (and for the future) and not use all space there is.
It is just the territory they are predominantly, close to the dunefolks. They can appear anywhere though.
My instant thought was "this is death zone" after reading this.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Hejnewar wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:23 pm
Many of the factions in south vill differ a bite visually and unit wise.
That's gonna be interesting. But it would be good to leave some space for UMC (and for the future) and not use all space there is.
Ultimately, only the content of the campaigns will explain territorial conflics.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Xalzar »

Oooh boy, do I have something to read today! :lol:
Ok, I'm caught up now.

First thing, since it came up earlier:
Celtic Minstrel wrote: Hmm, okay. Another possible reading of Xalzar's words is that "if we want this jungle to be bigger, it should be an explicit decision rather than an accident".
That was the point I was making, yes. I'm totally fine with how the eastern jungle has been developed.
As a matter of fact, I quite like the map altogether.

Now, to discuss the current matters:
I like the direction we're heading, giving more space to oft-forgotten races and changing the paradigms (Dwarf-Troll relations, possible Saurian-Elf cooperation, Drakes up in the food chain, finally some Naga territories), and avoiding copypasting races from the North.

So I like more-swampy Elves without the Scout line, surface Dwarves, Ogre territories.
About the Nagas, they do dwell in swamps according to this source (maybe it's outdated?): https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Nagas
I like in general the possibility of having more diverse match-ups than what happens oftentimes in the North.

About the Naga/Mermen territories in the last map version: I agree that the Naga territory between the Merfolk ones is a bit small and without islands for them to establish their settlements. If we reintroduce the swamp along the river, I can see them being sandwiched by Merfolk during their territorial skirmishes and retreating in the river and its marshlands.
I also liked the Merfolk portion south of the eastern jungle to give interactions between Saurians and Merfolk possibly.

About Orcs, I can see them introduced. But not in the very south.
Wesnoth has been overrun by Orcs a few times (also remember they were hired by Asheviere too), and the Eastmarks region even more. I can see them in the position 1 we're talking about, having been routed southward, because the northern way was blocked by enemies. Otherwise Orc expeditions could be present even in the Mountains of Peril or - again - in 1, at the order of an ambitious Ashieviere.
Finally, let's consider that the Green Isle is probably an Orc haven by now, and could have sent more Orc hordes over the centuries (if Orcs managed to learn how to build boats and navigate the ocean), so the western shores are another possible placement if we accept this possibility.

About position 2 I'm not sure at the moment, and 3 as CM said it's fine if we leave it unknown for the moment.

About the Black Forest: apparently Elves do not live there.
The South Guard wrote: much further south of that the Black River, of which Etheliel says "No elf, still living, has crossed it."
Usually, if Elves avoid a place it's because of dark magic. Undead base (remember Mal M'Brin is a thing, could be more)?

Still about the Undead: I see you have placed Saurians in the Bitter Swamp, but that place was the location of the capital of Mal Ravanal's undead hordes. Even with the defeat of the lich, I can see many necromancers survive and establish their little dominions in there.
If there were Saurians living there, they could have been wiped out and used as undead minions, or maybe they survived and mounted a resistance in some places (don't ask me how since they have only spears and cold magic as per mainline :roll: ), or whatever we want.
Consider that in the Swamp of Dread a similar thing happened: Saurian had an Empire there, then after their defeat Undead found a perfect habitat.

If we want Undead (and how could we strenghten even more the natural disdain of the Dunefolk for magic if not with Undead? :lol: ) I can see them in those two places.

Sorry about the Great Wall of text.

EDIT: As I spent an hour or so to write all of this down :doh: , many new posts have been published. I'll edit further in case.
About Orcs and portals and ships: first, we don't know if how much time the portal remained opened, some options being:
1- It closed as the Orcs rebelled and killed every Lich on the island;
2- It closed because such a magic feat is inherently unstable after some time;
3- I can see it being closed by some sort of non-human resistance of inhabitants of the island (my headcanon: Woses marched on the portal and they closed it with huge tree roots; they guard it ever since - LotR style);
4- It's still open! But nothing come through for some reason;
5- It's open and Orcs continue to pour from it;
6- It's open and more monstrosities come forth, waging wars with the Orcs.

Answering this question could change very much the lore of the Orcs in the Green Isle and even in the Great Continent, indirectly.
But mayhaps it's for the better to not answer at all.

About Orc ships, I've always understood that they took human ships to get to the Great Continent, and I don't know if they are able to build them. As time passes, they could've learnt.

About the bit about Goblins: if there is not sufficient food around, I can see them be more prevalent than in the Northern tribes, since they're basically weak Orcs which eat less (imagine the competition for the food) and cannot develop as proper Orcs. So that could be a difference between Southern and Northern Orcs.

Last thing, a bit OOT: rereading bits of TRoW, the Elves call Haldric's people "humans of the west-north", since the Green Isle is that way. And thus came the name Wesnoth. If we relocate the Green Isle southwards (like I saw in a map in this very topic), all falls apart. CRITICAL LORE WARNING!

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ghype
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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by ghype »

Xalzar wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:28 pm
About the Naga/Mermen territories in the last map version: I agree that the Naga territory between the Merfolk ones is a bit small and without islands for them to establish their settlements. If we reintroduce the swamp along the river, I can see them being sandwiched by Merfolk during their territorial skirmishes and retreating in the river and its marshlands.
I also liked the Merfolk portion south of the eastern jungle to give interactions between Saurians and Merfolk possibly.
I'd like to reintroduce that terrain and have that space from the south city the river a long until the swamp being controlled by nagas AND dunefolks.
Xalzar wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:28 pm
About Orcs, I can see them introduced. But not in the very south.
Wesnoth has been overrun by Orcs a few times (also remember they were hired by Asheviere too), and the Eastmarks region even more. I can see them in the position 1 we're talking about, having been routed southward, because the northern way was blocked by enemies. Otherwise Orc expeditions could be present even in the Mountains of Peril or - again - in 1, at the order of an ambitious Ashieviere.
Finally, let's consider that the Green Isle is probably an Orc haven by now, and could have sent more Orc hordes over the centuries (if Orcs managed to learn how to build boats and navigate the ocean), so the western shores are another possible placement if we accept this possibility.
In the devs forums was the removal of the Old Continent Discussed.
Xalzar wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:28 pm
About the Black Forest: apparently Elves do not live there.
The South Guard wrote: much further south of that the Black River, of which Etheliel says "No elf, still living, has crossed it."
Usually, if Elves avoid a place it's because of dark magic. Undead base (remember Mal M'Brin is a thing, could be more)?

Still about the Undead: I see you have placed Saurians in the Bitter Swamp, but that place was the location of the capital of Mal Ravanal's undead hordes. Even with the defeat of the lich, I can see many necromancers survive and establish their little dominions in there.
If there were Saurians living there, they could have been wiped out and used as undead minions, or maybe they survived and mounted a resistance in some places (don't ask me how since they have only spears and cold magic as per mainline :roll: ), or whatever we want.
Consider that in the Swamp of Dread a similar thing happened: Saurian had an Empire there, then after their defeat Undead found a perfect habitat.

If we want Undead (and how could we strenghten even more the natural disdain of the Dunefolk for magic if not with Undead? :lol: ) I can see them in those two places.
If in Bitter Swamp and Black Forest roam undead, then I should mark them.
Xalzar wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:28 pm
EDIT: As I spent an hour or so to write all of this down :doh: , many new posts have been published. I'll edit further in case.
About Orcs and portals and ships: first, we don't know if how much time the portal remained opened, some options being:
1- It closed as the Orcs rebelled and killed every Lich on the island;
2- It closed because such a magic feat is inherently unstable after some time;
3- I can see it being closed by some sort of non-human resistance of inhabitants of the island (my headcanon: Woses marched on the portal and they closed it with huge tree roots; they guard it ever since - LotR style);
4- It's still open! But nothing come through for some reason;
5- It's open and Orcs continue to pour from it;
6- It's open and more monstrosities come forth, waging wars with the Orcs.

Answering this question could change very much the lore of the Orcs in the Green Isle and even in the Great Continent, indirectly.
But mayhaps it's for the better to not answer at all.

About Orc ships, I've always understood that they took human ships to get to the Great Continent, and I don't know if they are able to build them. As time passes, they could've learnt.
See what I wrote to Edwylm in Spoiler.
Xalzar wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:28 pm
About the bit about Goblins: if there is not sufficient food around, I can see them be more prevalent than in the Northern tribes, since they're basically weak Orcs which eat less (imagine the competition for the food) and cannot develop as proper Orcs. So that could be a difference between Southern and Northern Orcs.
Goblin are used by the Orcs for agricultur. They are two weak to sustain themselves if anyone was to attack them. Goblins without Orcs seem unlikely.
Xalzar wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:28 pm
Last thing, a bit OOT: rereading bits of TRoW, the Elves call Haldric's people "humans of the west-north", since the Green Isle is that way. And thus came the name Wesnoth. If we relocate the Green Isle southwards (like I saw in a map in this very topic), all falls apart. CRITICAL LORE WARNING!
That is a very good point. Green Isles should probably be on the same height as the great river and Morogor should be between that.

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Re: Expanding The Great Continent - [Dunefolk Habitat]

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

ghype wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:12 pm
Well, the sprite displays it it with telekinetic abilities to raise rocks. So you could say that might be "earthy"? I assume it could also hold up rocks together to form a rock golem. Or to Hold sand together to for a "mud golem" out of sand. The Mud Crawlers could be mistaken to be made out of sand.
Even if you interpret the sprite as having the power to control rocks and earth, that doesn't translate to a "mud golem" or mudrawlers. Mud is earth plus water.

That said, I'd be more inclined to interpret the sprite as having control over air, rather than earth. If you can control air, then of course that includes blowing sand and small rocks around. (It's also not clear to me whether those are actual rocks in the sprite, or just small clouds of dust and sand.)
ghype wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:12 pm
Well those are mountains. But yeah, leave them unknown. Sure.
I thought the darker brown was mountains, but okay.
ghype wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 6:12 pm
Hejnewar wrote:
April 24th, 2020, 5:51 pm
Also Wyvern territory looks very small for species that I considered as very dangerous and well world shaping.
It is just the territory they are predominantly, close to the dunefolks. They can appear anywhere though.
I think they likely exist in the Kesh mountains too, but perhaps the area explicitly marked has more of them and/or more aggressive wyverns.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

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