Suggestion for 1.14

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Wussel
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Suggestion for 1.14

Post by Wussel » April 2nd, 2018, 8:57 am

Since shadowm was asking so nicely for a contribution to the new release, here my 5 cents:

Many years ago some generic portraits were put to be displayed always on the right side.

This decision was most likely made to please an artist at that time. I would suggest to change it back.

This is the female white mage for sure and I believe the elvish shyde (with the silly helmet) too, but maybe others as well.

If the art needs to be mirrored to appear on the left side we should do that too.
Last edited by Wussel on April 3rd, 2018, 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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shadowm
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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by shadowm » April 2nd, 2018, 5:45 pm

The Elvish “Shyde” with the “silly helmet” is actually the Elvish Sylph.

The decision (which involved technical aspects that are more complicated than you might suspect) wasn’t exactly made to “please” any artists as far as I remember, but rather save them the work of having to redraw or repaint them. I believe (but don’t quote me on this) it was kind of an experimental design phase that stemmed from an initial accident with one portrait, and then a few more portraits were drawn the same way since the code became available*. I think only about 3 new portraits anchored to the right side were produced since LordBob took over, and in total there are only 6 portraits for the core unit set using this feature.

Personally I tend to believe the original idea is good in principle, but it ought to be implemented differently. Have all portraits anchored to the left (i.e. remove the ~RIGHT() pseudo-IPF), and let content creators decide when they want them to be display on the right in the [message] code itself; then this can be used to implement dialogues where you have two sides in opposition to each other:

Code: Select all

[message]
    speaker=Konrad
    message= _ "Look Delfador, there are orcs ahead!"
[/message]

[message]
    speaker="Generic Orcish Warlord #13"
    mirror=yes
    message= _ "Graaaaurgh! We be angry stereotypical orcs! Kill everyone!"
[/message]

[message]
    speaker="Generic Goblin Minion #421"
    mirror=yes
    message= _ "Yes! Kill, kill!"
[/message]

[message]
    speaker=Delfador
    message= _ "Good grief..."
[/message]
*:
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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 3rd, 2018, 12:11 am

shadowm wrote:
April 2nd, 2018, 5:45 pm
Personally I tend to believe the original idea is good in principle, but it ought to be implemented differently. Have all portraits anchored to the left (i.e. remove the ~RIGHT() pseudo-IPF), and let content creators decide when they want them to be display on the right in the [message] code itself; then this can be used to implement dialogues where you have two sides in opposition to each other:
This was implemented at some point in the 1.13.x series, using the same syntax as you posted (the mirror key). I don't think ~RIGHT() has been officially deprecated yet, but it's no longer necessary to use it for anything.
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shadowm
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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by shadowm » April 3rd, 2018, 2:12 am

~RIGHT() requests the game to anchor the portrait on the right side without mirroring it, though, which is the whole point of the OP — it’s used in those rare cases where the portraits were drawn to be cropped/anchored on the right instead of the left. I assume mirror=yes for a left-anchored portrait is equivalent to using ~FL()~RIGHT() instead of just ~RIGHT(), so deprecating ~RIGHT() would involve getting rid of all right-anchored portraits by forcefully mirroring them on disk first.
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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 3rd, 2018, 4:04 am

Come to think of it, I believe I may have mixed up two things in [message]. The wiki explains it properly, I think, but basically there's a way to put the image on the right without mirroring it and without using ~RIGHT(), possibly using the second_image key? It can even display an image on both sides now, if you want.
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Wussel
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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by Wussel » April 3rd, 2018, 7:30 am

I am totally with shadowm on this!

All default should be on the left! If the author of a campaign wants to display on the right, she should use the code! If needed we should mirror the png file in Gimp!
("would involve getting rid of all right-anchored portraits by forcefully mirroring them on disk first.")

Please change the 6 or whatever portrait back to default left! Even if it might look less good. We can always get new portraits!

Saving the artist trouble this way is a a severe lack of art direction we need to correct!

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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by shadowm » April 3rd, 2018, 7:52 am

Wussel wrote:
April 3rd, 2018, 7:30 am
Please change the 6 or whatever portrait back to default left! Even if it might look less good. We can always get new portraits!
The only issue I can think of is that the lighting will be obviously horizontally mirrored, which may not match other portraits made in a similar style — assuming there is any sort of consistency in this regard in the first place.

Also, you really seem to be underestimating the amount of time and effort involved in drawing portraits in the 1.6+ mainline style.
Wussel wrote:
April 3rd, 2018, 7:30 am
Saving the artist trouble this way is a a severe lack of art direction we need to correct!
When you get all emphatic like this without regard to what you’re actually saying, you sound like a certain politician who shall not be named on these forums. That is decidedly not a good thing.

Also, for the record, there is currently a Portrait Director. It’s LordBob. His existence hasn’t stopped being a thing or anything. This kind of thing is ultimately his call.
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Wussel
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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by Wussel » April 3rd, 2018, 6:36 pm

I am not saying we need to replace them straight away.

Basically it would be only the female white mage which is looking less good on the left. This is arguable the worst of Kitties portraits. She never reworked anything to my knowledge.

LordBob is the one who replaced a lot of his early portraits just because he disliked something (Like peasant). Nobody did understand the artistic reasons for it.

Since I said before: he is very professional. Therefor I have confidence in his judgement. But with out requesting him to look in this issue, he might just ignore it.

Judging from what he did in the past, I would guess he is not in favor of right side portraits. So go ahead make him decide.

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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by beetlenaut » April 4th, 2018, 6:52 am

Having a couple portraits that work differently than all the others causes inconsistencies to slip in. For example, the sylph apparently doesn't have its profile picture mirrored from its non-standard facing and ends up flipped by the help engine to face the wrong way. That's an argument in favor of making them all face the same way.
Wussel wrote:
April 3rd, 2018, 6:36 pm
She never reworked anything to my knowledge.
She completely redid her first portrait (the Elf fighter), and she usually incorporated advice and requests into her works in progress to the point of redoing large parts of a portrait. Perhaps you weren't around at the time, but then that should make you check into it before you say something like that. All the threads are still here. Or maybe just don't say it in the first place.
Wussel wrote:
April 3rd, 2018, 6:36 pm
the female white mage...This is arguable the worst of Kitties portraits.
Really? What's wrong with it?
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Wussel
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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by Wussel » April 4th, 2018, 7:01 am

I said it, I meant it and I was around. Please stick to topic.

I am not discussing what is wrong with the female white mage here.
(Hint: from shadowm was: It is complicated)

For the records: You seem to be in favor of this topic too. It is great to count you in.

Since shadowm started it:
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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by Pentarctagon » April 4th, 2018, 7:52 am

On the off chance anyone really wants to get into an argument about politics here for whatever reason: Don't. I will edit or delete posts if it becomes necessary.
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Wussel
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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by Wussel » April 6th, 2018, 11:23 am

I think we are good. I am pretty sure shadowm is done comparing me with No45.

For the record: When I said the female white mage is arguable the worst of Kitty's portraits I basically meant the least awesome. By no means I wanted to say it is bad. There is worse art out there for sure. Just not from Kitty. Arguable means: You might find something else from Kitty which you dislike more and that is OK.

Basically the idea here is to keep generic portraits on the left side always. Please stay on topic. Can we have a poll?

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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by LordBob » April 17th, 2018, 9:25 am

So, left/right portraits. I'm all for simplification whether it be art or code, especially if all that's required is mirroring.

Altogether there is hardly any lighting consistency in the mass of portraits spanning all factions and campaigns so we should not let that stop possible improvements. There usually is some consistency within the work of a given artist, but even that is not guaranteed and then in most portraits the lighting does not have a strong enough direction that mirroring the image would cause any sort of problem.

Long story short, I looked at the female white mage and indeed she does read better from the right, I get why Kitty chose that. If it were one of my portraits I'd fix it (already did in fact), but I'm reluctant to commit the edited work of another artist unless the license they're released under will allow it. Does it ?

Alternately we can simply mirror the image and be done with it, the difference is really minor enough that most players won't even notice.


If anyone has a quick way (read : one that doesn't imply browsing through the entire portrait library) to gather images with similar problems, please list them below and I'll make the call
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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by Wussel » April 27th, 2018, 3:03 pm

LordBob wrote:
April 17th, 2018, 9:25 am
....
If it were one of my portraits I'd fix it (already did in fact), but I'm reluctant to commit the edited work of another artist unless the license they're released under will allow it. Does it ?
...
Since nobody has answered this question for 10 days:

I would say GPL is technically allowing to build on the works of others.

Those who did know Kitty, would however assume that she is not really in favor of art collaborations. Moreover her pieces were always perfect in her eyes. So to be on the save side, it would be kind to ask her.

However (again) it appears that she has moved on many years ago.

I do think that this is the only portrait which would benefit from fixing. I actually experimented with the distortion tool after mirroring. The rest of the portraits seem to be in general fine by only mirroring them (i.e. the sylph).

Shadowm claimed that there are around 6 portraits having the right side issue. Maybe she could write a list?

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Re: Suggestion for 1.14

Post by Wussel » April 30th, 2018, 7:37 am

I noticed the elvish shaman popping up on the right side playing "elvish dynasty". Totally pointless. I am not sure if there is a need even to mirror this or the sylph.

I am guessing the other unkown pieces (probably 3 more) suffering from right side disease are all female too. I would not assume any of the others need any fixing. Maybe not even mirroring. But that should be decided by an artist.

What the heck were people thinking 8 years ago? Women are from Venus and men are from Mars? Please get rid of this unicorns for the new release.

I am sure there must be some code somewhere, where this silliness is actually executed. Could somebody please, please with sugar on top, tell me where to find it?

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