Zombies

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beetlenaut
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Re: Zombies

Post by beetlenaut » April 2nd, 2017, 4:15 am

No problem as fan as I'm concerned! These might not be high-priority portraits, but they are still nice to have. I particularly like the wose. I think the skin of the goblin could use some discolored patches and wounds though. He looks a little too healthy at the moment, and the bones showing through like you have on the human portrait really help sell it I think.
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Gyra_Solune
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Re: Zombies

Post by Gyra_Solune » April 2nd, 2017, 9:00 pm

The Swimmer is a tough one, yes. I'd say...focus on making it look like a merman rather than being ambiguous? Ideally there'd be a corpse variant for each race, there just isn't one for the Nagas yet (they ought to have a different movetype anyway, since they're slightly more 'amphibious' than mermen). Nagas seem to be low-priority overall!

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doofus-01
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Re: Zombies

Post by doofus-01 » April 3rd, 2017, 4:13 am

beetlenaut wrote: These might not be high-priority portraits, but they are still nice to have.
They probably don't have a lot of campaign dialogue, but I think any player who looks at "Walking Corpse" in help pages is going to go down the rabbit-hole, with all those variations to click on. So, it would put a better foot forward if we had something there.
(I also don't think amateur contributions are accepted for important units anymore, so I won't be trying anything else mainline.)
beetlenaut wrote: I think the skin of the goblin could use some discolored patches and wounds though. He looks a little too healthy at the moment, and the bones showing through like you have on the human portrait really help sell it I think.
Yeah, I agree. I revised it a bit, I think it looks more undead now.
Gyra_Solune wrote:The Swimmer is a tough one, yes. I'd say...focus on making it look like a merman rather than being ambiguous? Ideally there'd be a corpse variant for each race, there just isn't one for the Nagas yet (they ought to have a different movetype anyway, since they're slightly more 'amphibious' than mermen). Nagas seem to be low-priority overall!
That does point to the problem with this Walking Corpse thing; it's yet another hurdle for UMC races to deal with, if they aren't some human or derivative faction. Maybe a "generic beast" unit could be made that would cover most situations where the human corpse doesn't make sense? :hmm: Better to start with the sprite though.
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zombie-drake.png
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zombie-goblin.png
zombie-goblin.png (80.33 KiB) Viewed 2512 times
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Samonella
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Re: Zombies

Post by Samonella » April 3rd, 2017, 5:34 am

Thanks for doing this, they look great! I especially like the zombie bat.

I have some critique for the newer ones. Take this with a grain of salt because I'm decidedly not an artist, but shouldn't the drake be a lot more scale-y? Also, compared to, say, the elf-zombie, he has much better posture; zombies (as I imagine them) are more like you first couple portraits, with as many limp muscles as possible. Your zombie goblin would be an exception of course, since he captures the chicken-with-it's-head-cut-off, frantic and hyper kind of zombie. But even there, tilting the head back more might be an improvement.
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doofus-01
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Re: Zombies

Post by doofus-01 » April 8th, 2017, 2:49 am

Samonella wrote:Take this with a grain of salt because I'm decidedly not an artist, but shouldn't the drake be a lot more scale-y?
Not being an artist doesn't disqualify anyone from having impressions or visions, no worries. As for the scales... possibly. But it doesn't currently look that out of line for a reptile. Maybe it is a detail for later.
Samonella wrote:Also, compared to, say, the elf-zombie, he has much better posture; zombies (as I imagine them) are more like you first couple portraits, with as many limp muscles as possible.
You have a point, but I don't feel it is strong enough to warrant me starting over. If someone wants to draw a more broken-posture zombie-drake, I won't stand in the way.
----------------

Here is the zombie-troll. I think the lower arm is a bit too confused, but I think the general plan is OK.
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Re: Zombies

Post by beetlenaut » April 8th, 2017, 3:18 am

doofus-01 wrote:I think the lower arm is a bit too confused
Change it if you want, but I think it worked out just fine. I was wondering how you were going to show wounds on a troll--and now we know what they look like on the inside! I also like his pose and the way you included a rope to show a bit of their culture. The goblin looks good now, too.
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Re: Zombies

Post by Horus2 » April 8th, 2017, 5:38 pm

doofus-01 wrote:
Gyra_Solune wrote:The Swimmer is a tough one, yes. I'd say...focus on making it look like a merman rather than being ambiguous? Ideally there'd be a corpse variant for each race, there just isn't one for the Nagas yet (they ought to have a different movetype anyway, since they're slightly more 'amphibious' than mermen). Nagas seem to be low-priority overall!
That does point to the problem with this Walking Corpse thing; it's yet another hurdle for UMC races to deal with, if they aren't some human or derivative faction. Maybe a "generic beast" unit could be made that would cover most situations where the human corpse doesn't make sense? :hmm: Better to start with the sprite though.
Hello, hardcore player speaking. My personal advice is that do not bother yourself with the inclusiveness more than what you enjoy creating. The WML line "undead_variation=null" exists for a good reason. Not only because it is more convenient than making a variation for every race, but there is a strategic and balance aspect too. Having casual access to a unit which is immune to plague adds an extra layer; without it, there is not much active counterplay, as stationing units in villages would be the only option. A prime example where this is prevalent would be my PYR Armageddon era (where people praise giant rats for being both a discardable unit and plague immune simultaneously), probably some other eras too.
Playing devil's advocate a bit more. Currently the tentacle of the deep also has a swimmer variation. What should be done here? Making the portrait of the swimmer zombie more tentacle-like while still having merman features? :twisted: Splitting it up and making wc and soulless sprites, fully animated, along with an undead tentacle portrait? :twisted: Or swallow that these noble endeavours have a reasonable limit? A decision from above should tell where to pull this line, once and for all. Frankly i would have been content if the gryphon rider generates only a dwarven zombie.

(other than that, these are very pretty corpses!)

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doofus-01
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Re: Zombies

Post by doofus-01 » April 8th, 2017, 9:04 pm

Thanks, guys. This is the dwarf, I'll try to finish these two this weekend.
zombie-dwarf.jpg
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Horus2 wrote:Currently the tentacle of the deep also has a swimmer variation. What should be done here? Making the portrait of the swimmer zombie more tentacle-like while still having merman features? :twisted:
Ugh. And why does it have a walking corpse anyway, isn't it part of a bigger animal?
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Re: Zombies

Post by doofus-01 » April 10th, 2017, 4:14 am

I got part-way through the "swimmer" zombie. It's probably a merman, but it might serve for a naga in a pinch. Not a tentacle though, I couldn't figure out how to square that circle. The (unshaded) belly scales were the nod to the snakelike naga, not sure if they're worth keeping.
zombie-swimmer.jpg
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I've got a PR for this, so if the package is accepted, it won't require hunting through this thread.
https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/977

I should also say that I have no intention of drawing different portraits for the soullesses, they are basically the same unit as WC.
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Re: Zombies

Post by zookeeper » April 10th, 2017, 7:31 am

doofus-01 wrote:
Horus2 wrote:Currently the tentacle of the deep also has a swimmer variation. What should be done here? Making the portrait of the swimmer zombie more tentacle-like while still having merman features? :twisted:
Ugh. And why does it have a walking corpse anyway, isn't it part of a bigger animal?
Right. I'd lean towards it not having a corpse at all. Seems like an acceptable exception to make, seeing how it makes sense logically and because it's such a rare combination anyway (player has plague, and has tentacles as enemies).

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Re: Zombies

Post by Samonella » April 10th, 2017, 3:34 pm

zookeeper wrote:Right. I'd lean towards it not having a corpse at all. Seems like an acceptable exception to make, seeing how it makes sense logically and because it's such a rare combination anyway (player has plague, and has tentacles as enemies).
I'd say that it shouldn't be an exception exactly because it's such a rare combination; the only way players will find out tentacles don't have corpses is by getting an unpleasant surprise, one that might even turn a close victory to a close defeat. I guess you could come up with a trait to explain it... but I'm no fan of having another almost unused trait like "elemental" floating around. What would it be, "appendage?"

Besides, I don't think it's so crazy to think that if you cut off a large tentacle you can infect it the same way as a humanoid. Of course I'm not saying someone should waste time making tentacle-corpse sprites, but IMO it's better to deal with a silly transformation from tentacle to "swimmer" zombie than to create a case-specific gamerule to surprise players with.
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Re: Zombies

Post by Gyra_Solune » April 10th, 2017, 7:27 pm

I'd say that the Tentacle should just end up, in an ideal world, turning into a 'zombie sea monster' unit, along with the two Serpents and the Cuttle Fish. We're unlikely to get such a thing though.

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Re: Zombies

Post by doofus-01 » April 16th, 2017, 2:29 am

I've added a zombie wolf to the PR:
Image
Now all the current mainline variations have at least something for a portrait (the gryphon is a bit of a joke, but how often does that come up?)

Samonella, Gyra_Solune - I'm not buying the argument that the tentacle needs a zombie variation, but it's not my call and it's not like the matter is a law of reality anyway, so who's to say... The Cuttlefish & friends who don't fit any of the variations could fit under a generic "Walking Carcass" that has decent movement on most terrains, but no special resistances? You can explain it away as something like: a zombie cuttlefish is not as hindered by dry land because it doesn't care if it can't breathe or if it dries out.
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Re: Zombies

Post by Gyra_Solune » April 17th, 2017, 11:04 pm

I do think if nothing else a generic, somewhat monstreous walking corpse is a good default for pretty much anything without one already. I'd technically argue there ought to be three more than there are both for mainline stuff and possible UMC uses - a 'serpentine' one for the various sea monsters and anything else snake-like (maybe even Nagas), an 'insect' one for anything bug-like like, namely the Scorpion and Spider along with Shaxthal, and a 'brute' one for things like the Yeti, Ogres, and any other humanoid that's exceptionally huge and hulking, like Minotaurs. But in the meantime, a generic one, if well-designed, would serve the place of all those. Maybe such a thing ought to look like in some way a chimera?

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Re: Zombies

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » April 18th, 2017, 4:40 am

zookeeper wrote:Right. I'd lean towards it not having a corpse at all. Seems like an acceptable exception to make, seeing how it makes sense logically and because it's such a rare combination anyway (player has plague, and has tentacles as enemies).
I could agree on making the tentacle immune to plague - even if you defeat a tentacle, the actual monster still lives. You've merely cut off one of its arms. While there's no reason for the monster to be immune to plague, the fact is you never truly kill the monster - it essentially retreats once its tentacles are destroyed.
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