Ressurecting the Javalineer

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quartex
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Ressurecting the Javalineer

Post by quartex »

I really liked neoriceisgood's images for a new javalineer unit. They seem to have been deleted by the server crash, but hopefully he can repost them in this thread.

Currently the spearman loses hsi ranged attack when he levels up, and one of the rules of the wensoth unit philosophy, is that leveling up a unit should never be a bad thing. Leveling up shouldn't punish a player, you don't want the player to have to keep a unit from gaining experience. Right now, if you needed the ranged attack of the spearman, leveling up would be a bad thing.

Anyway, I also like the idea of only having a level 2 javalineer. That way we cna make it more powerful, like the human lancer, and offer a tradeoff between keeping the ranged attack versus going for all melee attacks. Besides if a player really wants a good ranged unit, he should be recruiting bowman.

I'm not sure what the final stats for a level 2 javalineer were, but I'm going to post some suggested stats, just to get the ball rolling:

Javelineer, Level 2
45 HP
70 XP
Moves: 5

spear(pierce)
first strike
8-3 melee

javelin(pierce)
10-2 ranged
scott
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Post by scott »

You should give him a first strike for ranged. Also, I think you should go stronger on the ranged and weaker on the melee. How about 14-2? It would be like a ranged version of the pikeman. Combined with first strike this would be an attractive powerful unit like the Lancer is with the drawbacks of no advancement and lower HP. Then, for melee it should probably be 6-3 or 5-3 and argue that javelins are harder to wield in short combat than are spears.

I know this is going in a different direction than you probably intended, but I'm having trouble seeing the niche that this unit is trying to fill. I suspect that there is not a good niche because we just want him so there can be a ranged advancement for the spearman. Making the stats stand out this way would differentiate him a little bit more.
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LibrarianBrent
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Post by LibrarianBrent »

The melee should still be 8-3, maybe going down to 7-3, but it should lose first strike.
quartex
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Post by quartex »

LibrarianBrent wrote:The melee should still be 8-3, maybe going down to 7-3, but it should lose first strike.
LibrarianBrent wrote:The melee should still be 8-3, maybe going down to 7-3, but it should lose first strike.

Re: scott
First strike is explicitly only for melee attacks, it is supposed to represent the idea that unit with longer weapons can strike first. A "first shoot" ability was proposed, but never implemented. We had so much arguing over what first stike should do originally, that I'm hesitant to suggest changing it's use by putting first strike on a ranged attack.

I want the javalineer to be a good mixed fighter (much like the elvish ranger/avenger). It's melee attack shouldn't be stronger than the swordsman/halbadier, nor should it's ranged attack be better than the longbowman. The longbowman's ranged attack is 10-3, so I don't want to pump the javalineer's ranged attack too much. However increasing the ranged attack to 12-2 might help make the javalineer a bit better of a level 2 unit.

Re: LibrarianBrent
The level 1 spearman's attack is 7-3, I think he should increase his melee attack slightly when he levels.

Why should leveling the spearman make him lose first strike? We want units to get more powerful when they level up, not weaker. I stand by the idea of a 8-3 first strike melee attack.
LibrarianBrent
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Post by LibrarianBrent »

Oh, all right then. I suggest 8-3 melee, firststrike, paired with 11-2 range.
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Post by Dave »

I think if 'first strike' were to be used on a ranged attack, it would be given to a unit that was deemed to have an attack that can reach further than other ranged attacks. A javelin likely wouldn't qualify. A longbow might, a thunderstick might, or some kind of magical attack might...

As for the javelineer, I think it's a good idea, and I forget why we haven't implemented it yet. I hope we still have those images :(

David
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quartex
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Post by quartex »

Dave wrote: As for the javelineer, I think it's a good idea, and I forget why we haven't implemented it yet. I hope we still have those images :(

David
Inertia, Dave. ;-) A lot of times things don't get implemented becuase people get distracted or get busy and then forget all about it. The original thread got sidetracked into other arguments and died out. Since Neoriceisgood created the art only a few weeks ago, I bet he still has them. As soon as he posts them, maybe someone with CVS access (like Shade or Jetryl) can implement a level 2 javalineer so we can test it out.
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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel »

quartex wrote:
Dave wrote: As for the javelineer, I think it's a good idea, and I forget why we haven't implemented it yet. I hope we still have those images :(

David
Inertia, Dave. ;-) A lot of times things don't get implemented becuase people get distracted or get busy and then forget all about it. The original thread got sidetracked into other arguments and died out. Since Neoriceisgood created the art only a few weeks ago, I bet he still has them. As soon as he posts them, maybe someone with CVS access (like Shade or Jetryl) can implement a level 2 javalineer so we can test it out.
Darth Fool did a bunch of the animations as well, IIRC.
I will pm him.
Darth Fool
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Post by Darth Fool »

Hi all, I am back from "vacation". I should have all the animations I did on my laptop at home, in which case I will repost them and send them to jetryl tomorrow.
Darth Fool
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Post by Darth Fool »

The melee attacks:
Attachments
human-javelineer-attack-melee-4.png
human-javelineer-attack-melee-4.png (2.84 KiB) Viewed 2054 times
human-javelineer-attack-melee-3.png
human-javelineer-attack-melee-3.png (3.23 KiB) Viewed 2056 times
human-javelineer-attack-melee-2.png
human-javelineer-attack-melee-2.png (3.49 KiB) Viewed 2056 times
Darth Fool
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Post by Darth Fool »

melee attack 1 and ranged attacks
Attachments
human-javelineer-attack-melee-1.png
human-javelineer-attack-melee-1.png (2.84 KiB) Viewed 2049 times
human-javelineer-attack-ranged-1.png
human-javelineer-attack-ranged-1.png (2.15 KiB) Viewed 2050 times
human-javelineer-attack-ranged-2.png
human-javelineer-attack-ranged-2.png (3.11 KiB) Viewed 2051 times
Darth Fool
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Post by Darth Fool »

ranged attacks and defend
Attachments
human-javelineer-attack-ranged-3.png
human-javelineer-attack-ranged-3.png (2.57 KiB) Viewed 2041 times
human-javelineer-attack-ranged-4.png
human-javelineer-attack-ranged-4.png (2.35 KiB) Viewed 2042 times
human-javelineer-defend.png
human-javelineer-defend.png (2.86 KiB) Viewed 2040 times
MRhe
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Post by MRhe »

These look awesome.
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Post by Darth Fool »

and neo's original plus a tar ball of them all
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human-javelineer.png
human-javelineer.png (1.81 KiB) Viewed 2026 times
human-javelineer.tar.gz
(24.11 KiB) Downloaded 114 times
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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel »

looks good enough. The "switching sides" attack is unconventional, yet you have created enough frames for it to work.

About the only thing I did change was I reversed the defend frame, since that did, in fact, look odd.

I'll commit later, once I come up with snazzy description text.

(also note, I am committing under the 8-3fs melee, 11-2 ranged, 45hp business above).
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