Desert Elves Edit

[lipk]

Uh... they are descendent of the elves, I don't think their hair color would change that easily, something in-between like a darkish yellow might make sense, but black seems too much.

I didn't write that, but nevermind

Actually it does - geneticists believe it takes merely 10,000-20,000 years to completely change a population from black to white, or vice-versa, given a move from an equatorial region, to the opposite (canada/russia/etc). They don't always change, but they can change that quickly (I think the forcing factors which make skin darker are much stronger than those which make skin lighter - pale skin can be lethal in an equatorial area, whereas dark skin isn't much of a living-fitness drag in polar areas (as far as I'm aware).

If I really wanted to nitpick I'd say that 20,000 years for elves convert into 4000 human years because of their longer lifespan (which does count in this aspect), and then have a look at the Arabs who have been living in quite a sunny region for presumably more than 4000 years... but blargh it all. Rationale doesn't matter that much. My main concern is that if they are to be preserved as elves they ought to show similarity with their ancestors (black skin isn't the biggest of problems here, in fact, an "african-based human model" would mean an entirely different facial structure as well). Otherwise, what is the point in them being called "elves"? Furthermore, I'm afraid that depicting them too much adapted to their environment would largely decrease the "poor elves wandering in the desert" feeling of the campaign.

I am not sure how well received a clearly identified religion would be given the storyline of UtBS - they kill their god after all.

What is clearly identified is hugely subjective, I for one already recognise them as Jewish for "wandering in the desert" "towards a promised land" and calling their god Eloh. Giving some scrolls of paper to the shamans and such wouldn't make any sane person feel offended, and insane people... I don't think we should discard any good ideas just because there're insane people out there. As for the god-slaying, no, they don't kill their god, they kill someone who pretends to be their god.

[zookeeper]

Uh... they are descendent of the elves, I don't think their hair color would change that easily, something in-between like a darkish yellow might make sense, but black seems too much.

Which ones?

It's a very poor cosmological choice as world-designers if we design a "world of wesnoth" where the only two continents that exist are the one wesnoth is one, and the one in "TRoW". I propose that the world of wesnoth is very much like the known world of ancient earth - much bigger than what is shown on any culture's maps. The reason wesnothians in wesnoth don't know about other continents is the same reason the greeks had no idea about the existence of the americas, australia, or antarctica.

I propose that there are elves, orcs, trolls, men, and most of the standard roster of wesnothian creatures living on distant, undiscovered continents. They come in all cultures and hues, but they tend to share certain characteristics - dwarves are always short, stout, and makers-of-things, elves are always tall, long-lived, lithe, and have an affinity with nature. They may be called by different names, in different cultures. There may even be other fantasy races, heretofore undiscovered that only show up on a few continents.

That's all nice and good, but unfortunately it's pretty clear that UtBS happens on the Great Continent (where Wesnoth is) and that they're descendants of the wood elves.

I don't see the campaign as being about desert elves who are biologically different from the wood elves, but rather about wood elves who have culturally (somewhat) adapted to a new environment.

See, stuff like this is up for grabs. This evidences a dangerous loyalty to existing canon - being loyal to it for no real reason other than "it's how it was originally written". If there is created content that explicitly, overly relies on it? Sure, that makes sense to preserve. That's a waste of work to change. But if there really is nothing that relies on it, other than a few lines of text in a campaign intro, it's bad to sacrifice cool ideas for no reason other than maintaining canon.

I wasn't citing canon, it was just my opinion on what kind of an impression the campaign as a whole gives about the elves. It's not a matter of whether there's technically a conflict with established canon, only a matter of what fits and makes sense considering how the elves are depicted in the campaign. Making the elves look like they're natives of a desert dilutes the effectiveness of a story of elves having a really hard time in a desert and going on to find a nice green and lush new home for themselves.

In any case, it might be a good idea to first produce a number of coloured face/head sketches and see which ones seem to work best?

[Jetrel]

That's all nice and good, but unfortunately it's pretty clear that UtBS happens on the Great Continent (where Wesnoth is) and that they're descendants of the wood elves.

I haven't played through UtBS, frankly - I started at one point and never got far. It's embarrassing to admit as a project admin, but I'm not going to lie about, neither directly, nor by omission. I've rectified this by, just now, reading it in it's entirety.

Having read it, there really doesn't seem to be anything in the story that fundamentally requires it be connected to wesnoth's history - there's a great deal of mention of wesnoth, but it's non-causative referencing. As far as I can tell, there's basically no tie-in of actual events from wesnoth. The only event that seems to have plot relevance is the creation of the second sun, which (again, I may just be under-read*) doesn't have any hooks in other campaigns because it happens well after them.

Honestly, if you did a find+replace on a few words like "wesnoth", the campaign could take place anywhere. I'm not proposing that we should make that change, I'm just saying it'd be something you could fully rewrite in one night's time. That's a very, very big difference from being causally related to wesnoth; from having a bunch of tie-ins to events and cultural institutions that couldn't have possibly happened anywhere else.


This is an important general distinction to be aware of for writing. What things are just name drops, and what things are absolutely require "that named thing to be only that thing and no other". Like, there's 2 name-drops of the sceptre of fire in UTBS which have no plot relevance - but if you actually found the sceptre and it had something to do with the plot, then that would be a causative reference that would strictly require them to have a connection to wesnoth.



I really don't give a [censored] what we do - I'm merely expressing a general frustration with the typical nerd mindset that slavishly reveres "canon" in any form. I.e. if some "original author" lays down part of a story, nerds will fall over themselves to defend it - it's bizarre. I don't know if it's some sort of outgrowth of the Romantic Period ideals of original authorship, or if it's a natural bias people have (like many other fallacies in reason), but it's damaging either way. I'm expressing this for your, zookeeper's, benefit just because I care about you as an individual and want you to do well in any cases where you engage in storywriting (which as an on-and-off game designer I've seen you do from time to time) - but I honestly don't give a rat's ass what we do about wesnoth's writing in particular. This is just a foil to discuss writing.


I will say from these principles I've outlined, it'd be pretty easy to rip out any references to wesnoth, if we wanted the elves to strictly look like they weren't descended from the elves in wesnoth. I honestly don't care - I leave that up to whatever the artists involved feel inspired to do. I will insist it's an easy change, though (unless IFtU has some connections to the quenoth elves, because IFtU has some good portraits already which we wouldn't want to invalidate).

[Dugi]

...

I will say from these principles I've outlined, it'd be pretty easy to rip out any references to wesnoth, if we wanted the elves to strictly look like they weren't descended from the elves in wesnoth. I honestly don't care - I leave that up to whatever the artists involved feel inspired to do. I will insist it's an easy change, though (unless IFtU has some connections to the quenoth elves, because IFtU has some good portraits already which we wouldn't want to invalidate).

It is not only IftU that has strong relations to both wesnoth and UtBS. There are many other campaigns that are tied to the events described in UtBS (and retold in IftU), like Trinity, The Fall of Wesnoth, or Legend of the Invincibles, just to name a few. In most cases, the part that was taken from UtBS is the Fall, the cataclysm that transformed wesnoth into a desert. Although their storylines probably conflict one with another, the events described in UtBS became a part of the cannon lore and telling that it is just an unrelated story will not change anything, just will make people hate the person who did these changes.
Regarding the storyline of IftU, the desert elves should not have dark skins, because Alinde, an important elvish character there, was a survivor of the destruction of the last forest. Of course, IftU is not mainline, so its events should not determine the cannon lore, but it is considered to be something kinda half-mainline.
I hope that this will not result in a load of unanimated sprites, like Liberty's shadow mages. I also like the current desert elves' sprites, so I am not neutral in this.

[taptap]

IftU has references to Quenoth elves but the guys you play aren't Quenoth elves - they may have common origin but have been apart for quite a time. Either way I don't think it is necessary to convince each other with "genetic" arguments (afaik the popular idea that evolution always proceeds gradually, slowly and without distinct steps is a complete travesty of the actual theory) especially when we are talking about a fictional world filled with magic where history, natural laws, appearance can and should change at the whim of the authors. I don't really get why Jetrel both doesn't want this kind of argument but always insists on adding some of it himself.

I personally don't think there is any problem with the combination of being adapted to a desert life (that you rarely choose yourself) and dreaming of a green land, with lush vegetation and shadow that shields you from the harsh sun(s). Being adapted means you survive under these conditions, not necessarily that you enjoy it.

[homunculus]

http://www.craft-candy.org/blog/wp-cont ... Dolls4.jpg (wooden doll, btw)
black people might make some interesting portraits because of their skin highlights, it would be nice to have such portraits in some campaign.

as for the elves, when they meet humans at the other side of the cave, the humans recognize them as elves, but the quenoth elves would rather resemble a weaker breed of orcs if their skin was too dark.
about the genetics thing, humans probably already have darker skinned genes mixed into them and might therefore adapt faster, but i wouldn't be so sure about the elves.

as for the arab style clothing (black, i guess, which is a reasonable color choice in extremely hot climates), black skin with black clothing would probably be an interesting challenge for our bored spriters.
might be fun to see this in action, lol.

and orkish assassin sprites might also be reused as a class of quenoth elves.

[AI]

Anlinde is the sole surviving cultist from the time of the fall. It is because she's a cultist that she's still alive, as far more than the normal lifespan of an elf has passed.
According to the IftU timeline (which contains some intentional flexibility regarding how it attaches to the wesnoth one), there's probably between 1000 and 3000 years between the fall and UtBS.

[Wussel]

Was this about Desert Elves? It looks like somebody said some kind of ok, but Flameslash stopped paying attention. Could it be fair to say:

It would be nice to have at least all the base frames of the elves recolored. Using them in the campaign might still be considered. So please do not expect to much.

Flameslash: Please with sugar on top: Back to work!

[Flameslash]

Shadowmaster said no thanks, and there's been no official decision to override that, so I stopped. But if someone says it'll get used, either in mainline or UMC, I'll do more.

[Wussel]

Jetrel and Lord Bob are the experts for art. They do like your idea. Shadowmaster just practiced some old moderation style in this thread.

I would suggest to make the base frames, if you like. There is no license for usage, but people usually like what they see. Anybody seconds my opinion?

[Speedbrain]

Jet and Lordbob did say they like the idea. However, I don't think simply recoloring the elf sprites will cut it, as mentioned by shadowmaster.

Shadowmaster, by the way is a maintainer of this campaign, IIRC, so he does have some say.

Judging by the comments already made, if you want to take a shot at this, you may want to redesign the sprites with more desert appropriate clothing (longer, looser, flowing style of clothes).

[Iris]

Jetrel and Lord Bob are the experts for art. They do like your idea. Shadowmaster just practiced some old moderation style in this thread.

Nope. That was my opinion as a mainline developer, IftU and AtS author, and once maintainer of UtBS.

It’s also my opinion as someone who knows where the current recolored elves came from in the first place.

[Wussel]

Well everybody has the right to have an opinion. Especially if someone collected all the merits you just mentioned. However some responsibility might be in order.

I do believe some way of recognizing alternate elves as known unit types should be in order. In that sense some similarity to the regular elves would be an asset. The discussion if cloth should be shorter or longer is definitely an interesting one. The question of new skin color too. As the elves seem to be in some kind of remake process, it might be best on focusing on the already redesigned base frames.

Keep it simple

Hair? Color/length
Cloth? Color/ length
Skin? Color

Maybe some desert style hat?

However I do believe that there would be value in Flameslash visualizing his concept of desert elves. I do believe there is no point in discouraging people to act. I do believe that we should not encourage to much by giving to much hope for mainline use. I would prefer a style where somebody states his opinion in a way which does not discourage.

[thespaceinvader]

From an art perspective, if we're going to replace the Desert Elves, it will be with NEW sprites, not just recolours of old ones. We already have recolours of old ones. Any replacement of art assets needs to be a real, tacit IMPROVEMENT, and without wanting to be offensive to Flameslash, I know him, and over the years he has not demonstrated the ability to do that.

[GunChleoc]

As to which style of clothes, why not look at pictures of Tuareg or Bedouins for inspiration