On what the inside of walls should look like

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Simons Mith
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On what the inside of walls should look like

Post by Simons Mith »

EDIT: Split from this thread.


Leaving it black may be 'right' but has anyone ever experimented with a rock or rubble infill for these tiles? I have always thought the solid black was terribly 'heavy', and I'd never use this terrain if I could possibly avoid it. I don't even like playing on maps that use it very much.
 
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Eleazar
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Re: Terrain

Post by Eleazar »

Simons Mith wrote:Leaving it black may be 'right' but has anyone ever experimented with a rock or rubble infill for these tiles? I have always thought the solid black was terribly 'heavy', and I'd never use this terrain if I could possibly avoid it. I don't even like playing on maps that use it very much.
They haven't been solid black until this summer. Before that they had a dark rocky texture, which was dark enough to turn to pure black at night (but not in the pre 1.9 caves which weren't color-shifted).

The problem with not making the inside of walls black or at least very dark should be obvious -- it will look like a terrain units should be able to walk on.

And there's no reason you should have to use cave walls on a map, we have several other options for impassibility.
Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
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Simons Mith
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Re: Terrain

Post by Simons Mith »

Eleazar wrote:The problem with not making the inside of walls black or at least very dark should be obvious -- it will look like a terrain units should be able to walk on.
This does not necessarily follow. One doesn't expect to be able to walk on lava, and that's not black. One would not expect to be able to stand on the top of the marble pillar in the new temple WIP. One does not expect to stand on impassable mountain hexes and all that's apparently stopping you there is a bit of mist. Finally, I believe there have been intangible units in UMCs that can pass through wall hexes, so they're not necessarily an absolute barrier anyway.

In other games - the first one which springs to my mind is UFO Enemy Unknown, but there are others - you have a multi-level environment in a similar isometric view to that used by Wesnoth, and it's entirely possible to see inaccessible squares containing - in that game - dirt. So plainly blackness is not the only possible way to indicate impassability; I suggest that for wall/rock elements, flatness is actually the more important criterion. Our current walls work because they're both flat and black. OTOH using flatness instead is potentially less ugly, I think. Example from UFO:EO: http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?titl ... MAP-L1.JPG
 
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Eleazar
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Re: Terrain

Post by Eleazar »

Simons Mith wrote:
Eleazar wrote:The problem with not making the inside of walls black or at least very dark should be obvious -- it will look like a terrain units should be able to walk on.
This does not necessarily follow. One doesn't expect to be able to walk on lava, and that's not black. One would not expect to be able to stand on the top of the marble pillar in the new temple WIP. One does not expect to stand on impassable mountain hexes and all that's apparently stopping you there is a bit of mist. Finally, I believe there have been intangible units in UMCs that can pass through wall hexes, so they're not necessarily an absolute barrier anyway.
You aren't going to persuade me by being pedantic. :annoyed:
I didn't say that anything that's not black would look like it can be walked on. The obvious difference between your examples and the inside of a stone wall cut open, is that lava, etc. is something a normal player would not expect to be walkable. A flat surface of dirt or stone is something that elsewhere in the game can be walked on.
Simons Mith wrote:In other games - the first one which springs to my mind is UFO Enemy Unknown, but there are others - you have a multi-level environment in a similar isometric view to that used by Wesnoth, and it's entirely possible to see inaccessible squares containing - in that game - dirt. So plainly blackness is not the only possible way to indicate impassability;... Example from UFO:EO: http://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?titl ... MAP-L1.JPG
I've seen similar examples. I believe our method is better for our situation (and would make UFO EU look better too).
Simons Mith wrote:I suggest that for wall/rock elements, flatness is actually the more important criterion. Our current walls work because they're both flat and black. OTOH using flatness instead is potentially less ugly, I think.
"Flatness" is supposed to make the inside of the wall distinct? We have a huge variety of flat terrains.
Besides, i think pure black inside walls looks great on the cave maps, and works well with shroud.
Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
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Re: Terrain

Post by johndh »

At this point, people are just discussing theory. When we see some icy cave walls with black on them, then we can compare for real. :P
It's spelled "definitely", not "definately". "Defiantly" is a different word entirely.
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Re: Terrain

Post by Eleazar »

johndh wrote:At this point, people are just discussing theory. When we see some icy cave walls with black on them, then we can compare for real. :P
No, i'm talking about the reasons why i made existing terrain look as it does. Reasons that apply equally to any foreseeable future wall terrain, ice or otherwise.

Anyway this is an either/or. It makes no sense to have the inside of some walls black, and other's textured.
Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
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Re: On what the inside of walls should look like

Post by doofus-01 »

johndh wrote:At this point, people are just discussing theory. When we see some icy cave walls with black on them, then we can compare for real. :P
The only thing I actually drew in the icy walls screenshot was the white on top. The rest was just a color-shift. So anyone can make blackened icy cave walls, if they really want to.

I think my problem with the black icy walls was that I didn't picture them representing a dark cave that happened to made of ice, but rather an ice crevasse. The walls sloping to blackness was most likely the problem, more than the blackness itself. So making straighter walls would probably fix it, but since the walls are getting re-worked someday soon(-ish?), it would be silly to work on that now.

Making the wall blackness textured would open a can of worms, as far as transitions go. If there is a need for impassable terrain that looks good on a wide open map but isn't a mountain with mist, it would be better to make that than shoehorn the cave terrain into the role. I'm not sure what that would be though... Palisades (with mist)?
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