Merman Hunter, extending the javelin throw routine

Contribute art for mainline Wesnoth.

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting critique in this forum, you must read the following thread:
User avatar
Issyl
Posts: 364
Joined: January 23rd, 2010, 9:48 pm
Location: Orlando, Florida, USA

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by Issyl » May 7th, 2010, 10:45 am

That motion looks excellent to me - I will say something still slightly bothers me about the tail motion, however. I'm not quite sure what it is.

User avatar
beetlenaut
Developer
Posts: 2389
Joined: December 8th, 2007, 3:21 am
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by beetlenaut » May 8th, 2010, 8:51 pm

I think the problem is the relative speeds of the tail and arm movement. His tail should probably whip back around when his arm shoots forwards.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

User avatar
Trilby
Art Contributor
Posts: 59
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 7:33 pm
Location: UK, Yorkshire

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by Trilby » June 9th, 2010, 7:06 pm

I would have liked to have gotten back round to working on this quicker than I have, but I'm not a hardcore spriter, that much is certain.

Thanks for the feedback though, I've acted on it. The tail movement is effectively 2 frames faster now, some increments gone altogether and a little deceleration added at the end... in theory. I think it looks better, but I'll let you be the judge of that.

One of my constant hang ups is frame count, I'm aware with Jet's commission notification, that the "Loony Toons" spear throw is estimated to be at 3-4 frames. Mine trundles in at 11 individual pngs, is this something to be concerned about?
Attachments
HunterJavelin_Blocking_Tail_03.gif
HunterJavelin_Blocking_Tail_03.gif (4.42 KiB) Viewed 1930 times

Kenpachi
Posts: 66
Joined: July 28th, 2009, 1:40 pm

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by Kenpachi » June 10th, 2010, 9:49 am

The tail movement looks wrong. It should be to counter balance the throwing movement when under water. (thus moving in the opposite direction to the throw

User avatar
thespaceinvader
Retired Art Director
Posts: 8414
Joined: August 25th, 2007, 10:12 am
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by thespaceinvader » June 10th, 2010, 11:45 am

If there are too many frames, cut some of the tweening frames out and see how it looks. You might be surprised ;)
http://thespaceinvader.co.uk | http://thespaceinvader.deviantart.com
Back to work. Current projects: Catching up on commits. Picking Meridia back up. Sprite animations, many and varied.

User avatar
Trilby
Art Contributor
Posts: 59
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 7:33 pm
Location: UK, Yorkshire

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by Trilby » June 10th, 2010, 12:53 pm

I believe a discussion about whether the mermen were considered submersed or above water, came to the conclusion that it should tow the line. Weight and balance distribution is based on video footage from an Olympic javelin throw --Human obviously. But as far as I been able to plot out, the tail does move in the opposite direction to the throw, as you suggest

Please bare with me while I iron this stage out. I'm still getting the hang of what makes for a decent Wesnoth animation. :P

:The motion as it was, only with three frames cut particularly in the early stages of the wind up and one from the motion as it cycles back into the standing frame. Loses the look of weight and some of the amusing rubberiness :) . Far more direct though, and the prospect of rendering the scales in each frame is less daunting. Curtailed to 8 frames.
Attachments
HunterJavelin_Blocking_Tail_03_truncated.gif
HunterJavelin_Blocking_Tail_03_truncated.gif (3.59 KiB) Viewed 1800 times

User avatar
beetlenaut
Developer
Posts: 2389
Joined: December 8th, 2007, 3:21 am
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by beetlenaut » June 10th, 2010, 9:13 pm

This is almost there. His upper body is perfect, but I think his tail is still moving too slowly while his arm is shooting forward. I think you could flick the tail around past its neutral position in just one frame as the arm is going forward. (Maybe two.) Spend the recovery frames moving it back to the neutral position from the other side.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

Kenpachi
Posts: 66
Joined: July 28th, 2009, 1:40 pm

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by Kenpachi » June 11th, 2010, 10:22 am

Trilby wrote:I believe a discussion about whether the mermen were considered submersed or above water, came to the conclusion that it should tow the line. Weight and balance distribution is based on video footage from an Olympic javelin throw --Human obviously. But as far as I been able to plot out, the tail does move in the opposite direction to the throw, as you suggest
With the current blocking, the tail moves in the same direction as the throwing arm, around the center of gravity.
To demonstrate what I'm getting at, sit on a swivel chair. Then using your feet as an anchor, do a wind up and throw motion and observe how your feet push against the ground for stability. :eng:

User avatar
Trilby
Art Contributor
Posts: 59
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 7:33 pm
Location: UK, Yorkshire

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by Trilby » June 15th, 2010, 3:47 pm

I've worked on two alternative tail movements to address comments made. I may be confusing matters for myself, but I'd like to follow the route that meets most favour.

@ Beetlenaut: Thanks for your feedback, I'd attempted to introduce some motion like this before, but never got it to look quite right. I hope this makes the necessary improvements. The outcome appears quite bouncy, but I don't dislike that.

@ Kenpachi: I believe I'm beginning to see what you mean. I've been working on an alternative, but I'm unsure whether this answers or not. I could have completely missed your point. However in my original effort, the weight is applied -not to the end of the tail; but to the lower body mass that makes contact with the ground, it does push and squash in the direction your swivel chair example assumes. In this way it effectively makes this a land oriented attack animation.

Use your hand to cover that part of the screen you want to avoid, by which I don't mean the thread in general. I'm dithering while this is decided for me, that must be the case. :?
Attachments
HunterJavelin_Blocking_A.gif
HunterJavelin_Blocking_A.gif (3.87 KiB) Viewed 1512 times
HunterJavelin_Blocking_B.gif
HunterJavelin_Blocking_B.gif (3.46 KiB) Viewed 1512 times

User avatar
thespaceinvader
Retired Art Director
Posts: 8414
Joined: August 25th, 2007, 10:12 am
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by thespaceinvader » June 15th, 2010, 3:49 pm

We can do two different animations for water and land, if necessary, though not needing to would be preferable.
http://thespaceinvader.co.uk | http://thespaceinvader.deviantart.com
Back to work. Current projects: Catching up on commits. Picking Meridia back up. Sprite animations, many and varied.

User avatar
Trilby
Art Contributor
Posts: 59
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 7:33 pm
Location: UK, Yorkshire

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by Trilby » June 15th, 2010, 4:06 pm

I agree, I would rather work towards having this attack animation look as if it could be either land or water based. I actually don't think the squash of the lower body I mentioned would detract in either context, but is a touch more land-lubberly to look at.

User avatar
beetlenaut
Developer
Posts: 2389
Joined: December 8th, 2007, 3:21 am
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by beetlenaut » June 15th, 2010, 4:16 pm

@Trilby: Thanks for doing all this blocking work. I think the top one looks great!
@Kenpachi: I don't disagree with the physics in your explanation, but I still somehow think the top one "looks right", which it shouldn't if it's impossible. Maybe we are interpreting the masses differently, or maybe it's the fact that we aren't used to motion under water.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide

Kenpachi
Posts: 66
Joined: July 28th, 2009, 1:40 pm

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by Kenpachi » June 16th, 2010, 11:21 am

beetlenaut wrote: @Kenpachi: I don't disagree with the physics in your explanation, but I still somehow think the top one "looks right", which it shouldn't if it's impossible. Maybe we are interpreting the masses differently, or maybe it's the fact that we aren't used to motion under water.
In the end it just has to look good.
I have to study physics, hence my pedanticness about it 8)
And tsi is right, one animation would be preferable.

User avatar
thespaceinvader
Retired Art Director
Posts: 8414
Joined: August 25th, 2007, 10:12 am
Location: Oxford, UK
Contact:

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by thespaceinvader » June 16th, 2010, 11:45 am

I was thinking about this in the pool this morning: what is needed, more than anything, is to counteract the backward motion that will come about in reaction to the forward motion of the arm and spear. On land, we do this by bracing our legs. IN water, you'd need to provide some forward motion...
http://thespaceinvader.co.uk | http://thespaceinvader.deviantart.com
Back to work. Current projects: Catching up on commits. Picking Meridia back up. Sprite animations, many and varied.

User avatar
Sleepwalker
Art Contributor
Posts: 416
Joined: October 23rd, 2008, 6:34 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Merman Hunter, blocking the javelin throw

Post by Sleepwalker » June 16th, 2010, 1:05 pm

One thing to think about when animation tails is that you should move the base of the tail first and then let the rest of the tail flow along with the movement in a wave like way. The bottom counter-rotating animation currently does not.
Sometimes we must be hurt in order to grow, fail in order to know, lose in order to gain, and sometimes we must have to be broken so we can be whole again...
- Nercy Masayon

Post Reply