Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

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A-Red
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: Monolith/menhir redos, signs.

Post by A-Red » July 7th, 2009, 3:35 am

Yes, this should definitely be a desert-specific monolith--you can always set up an alternate version for grass, but I don't think it will look as good there. Either way, I agree that it needs a good transition into the terrain.

On the note of terrain-specific monoliths, it might be pretty cool to have one for snowy terrain, with some snow piled up around it and collected on top. Just a thought.

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Re: Melinath's Scenery: Monolith/menhir redos, signs.

Post by Blarumyrran » July 7th, 2009, 2:50 pm

Moved up, & some marginal other changes. & made 2 more.
Question, though: what are the symbols? i.e. are they just generic symbols or are they runic inscriptions? Decoration, or message?
If its ambiguous enough to prompt such question, then as a rule of thumb it should be up to the scenario creator.

Your red one (its probably too red to fit anywhere other than maybe deserts, and even there it might be odd - remember, we have no red cliff/mountain graphics) looks parallel to the screen, like in some sidescroller platformer, but almost everything in wesnoth is under an angle towards the viewer. And when in doubt about dominant colors, use heavily desaturated ones - that applies almost anywhere.
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: Monolith/menhir redos, signs.

Post by melinath » July 7th, 2009, 3:16 pm

Syntax_Error wrote:
Question, though: what are the symbols? i.e. are they just generic symbols or are they runic inscriptions? Decoration, or message?
If its ambiguous enough to prompt such question, then as a rule of thumb it should be up to the scenario creator.
I have to disagree with you there. Runes are extremely important (in my mind). Especially since there's actually some development of a canon for runic symbols now. Dwarves use Elder Futhark, Humans/Undead use Cuneiform, Elves use ???. In other words, it seems to me that while choosing a set of runes to use does exclude other races from using the stone (though of course the scenario creators could just ignore this) choosing to not use runes excludes all races that use them. In other words, you can't argue that the Paladin just needs to have some sort of squiggle on his armor, which the scenario creator can interpret as a design or as runes.
Syntax_Error wrote: Your red one (its probably too red to fit anywhere other than maybe deserts, and even there it might be odd - remember, we have no red cliff/mountain graphics) looks parallel to the screen, like in some sidescroller platformer, but almost everything in wesnoth is under an angle towards the viewer. And when in doubt about dominant colors, use heavily desaturated ones - that applies almost anywhere.
I am aware that one should use desaturated colors. In this case, I was very carefully using this reference to get the colors. I think that the lack of red rocks is, if anything, a reason to try to bring some in! Although in this case, looking at the reference again (and comparing it with other photos of the same formation), I think the color of the stones comes mostly from the light and less from the rock itself. I'll give recoloring a shot.

Not sure where you're getting the 'parallel to the screen' impression. The shading is similar to how it is on yours. The only difference is that I didn't use symbols, so my rocks don't have a clear front. That being said, your new ones once more put me to shame. Nice work. I'll post my new versions in a bit.

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Re: Melinath's Scenery: Monolith/menhir redos, signs.

Post by Turuk » July 7th, 2009, 3:24 pm

melinath wrote:I am aware that one should use desaturated colors. In this case, I was very carefully using this reference to get the colors. I think that the lack of red rocks is, if anything, a reason to try to bring some in! Although in this case, looking at the reference again (and comparing it with other photos of the same formation), I think the color of the stones comes mostly from the light and less from the rock itself. I'll give recoloring a shot.
You hit the nail on the head already, but now that I see your reference I understand your color choice, even though it was slightly misconstrued. That color is all from the sun, as here is a reference picture from a cloudy day.
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: Monolith/menhir redos, signs.

Post by Blarumyrran » July 7th, 2009, 4:32 pm

melinath wrote:I have to disagree with you there. Runes are extremely important (in my mind). Especially since there's actually some development of a canon for runic symbols now. Dwarves use Elder Futhark, Humans/Undead use Cuneiform, Elves use ???. In other words, it seems to me that while choosing a set of runes to use does exclude other races from using the stone (though of course the scenario creators could just ignore this) choosing to not use runes excludes all races that use them. In other words, you can't argue that the Paladin just needs to have some sort of squiggle on his armor, which the scenario creator can interpret as a design or as runes.
... cuneiform for humans? I havent seen that one used anywhere; and it would be very unatmospheric imo in this mostlypseudowesterneuropean setting (so is to lesser extent the ankh that is used as a safer replacement of christian cross, but oh well).

But when making it, i thought it would be just decorative. No meaning. (if there is to be some writing associated with the obelisk, thats what i originally made the small tablet near the base of it for)
I think that the lack of red rocks is, if anything, a reason to try to bring some in!
Im sure red rocks might look nice, but if they were to be brought in, creating some mountain graphics of them would be the right place to start imo.
Not sure where you're getting the 'parallel to the screen' impression. The shading is similar to how it is on yours.
i cant put my finger on it, but it feels as if it would have such perspective:

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Re: Melinath's Scenery: Monolith/menhir redos, signs.

Post by thespaceinvader » July 7th, 2009, 4:37 pm

Cuneiform has been used(in a few portraits), and will continue to be used, for human magical writing/runes, rather than for everyday scripting. I don't think there's anything set down in canon about that sort of thing.

SynErr: it's great to see you contributing, these look excellent. Keep up the good work.

If you're interested, there's a project I've been meaning to assign to a talented terrain artist for some time: working up this Drake village to mainline quality http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... ke+village
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: Monolith/menhir redos, signs.

Post by Jetrel » July 7th, 2009, 9:15 pm

synerr: the two latest rocks look great. The middle "burial monument" one is a little specialized, but it's still great to have. If you could make about 2 more "organic" ones, like your first and third one in that post, I think we'd be set to replace all the monoliths. It'd be awesome if you could do the rocks and slab as well, but we'll stop whenever you lose motivation, for obvious reasons. :) If you could kick ass on this, you'd end up taking out the worst of our bad decorations, though, so I strongly encourage you to do so.


Specifically, we need to replace the following images:
monolith[1-4].png (we've got 2/4 done)
rock-cain.png (will replace with burial monument image you made)
rock[1-4].png
slab1.png


And potentially, though these might be another project:
rubble.png
castle-ruins.png
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by melinath » July 7th, 2009, 10:55 pm

Jetryl wrote:synerr: the two latest rocks look great. The middle "burial monument" one is a little specialized, but it's still great to have. If you could make about 2 more "organic" ones, like your first and third one in that post, I think we'd be set to replace all the monoliths. It'd be awesome if you could do the rocks and slab as well, but we'll stop whenever you lose motivation, for obvious reasons. :) If you could kick ass on this, you'd end up taking out the worst of our bad decorations, though, so I strongly encourage you to do so.
If you do that, start a new thread, please. I don't mind the monoliths here because that was what I started the thread for. But if they have everything monolithic they want from you I'll move on to signpost portraits. If/when I'm feeling like it.

EDIT:: On a signpost note:
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1dsignpost_grass.png
1dsignpost_grass.png (10.07 KiB) Viewed 1454 times

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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Jetrel » July 8th, 2009, 12:06 am

melinath wrote:EDIT:: On a signpost note:
That looks great; it looks a bit grey, but that's fine for settings where it's aged, bleached wood. Could you post a transparent PNG of it?
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by melinath » July 8th, 2009, 6:39 am

Jetryl wrote:That looks great; it looks a bit grey, but that's fine for settings where it's aged, bleached wood. Could you post a transparent PNG of it?
Sure.
signpost_grey.png
signpost_grey.png (1.88 KiB) Viewed 1374 times
((EDIT:: And a version where I've fixed the funky thinness that you don't notice on the grass background.))
signpost_grey.png
signpost_grey.png (1.87 KiB) Viewed 1301 times
((/EDIT))

It's meant to be old, bleached wood. :-)

I was planning on making a portrait for it, if that's all right. Sign posts are used fairly often, and the player always gets presented either with the tiny icon or with the default Wesnoth symbol (crossed swords + shield). The only problem is that I was going on the following reasoning: Humans learned writing from the Wesfolk and would thus have just the one script for magical and ordinary writing. This would be great, because I could put cuneiform on the signpost and you could use it in any scenario regardless of what the signpost actually says and regardless of what language the game is running in.

However, this is not a canon position. Could it be one? Or alternatively, I could use a different, related script (I'd search for it, but don't have the time right now) that could be a writing script, if it should be separated.

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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Turuk » July 8th, 2009, 2:09 pm

melinath wrote:However, this is not a canon position. Could it be one? Or alternatively, I could use a different, related script (I'd search for it, but don't have the time right now) that could be a writing script, if it should be separated.
After discussions with a friend from space, cuneiform will probably remain as the script used for magical script, but as to another script, what about Glagolitic?
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Aethaeryn » July 9th, 2009, 2:21 am

Turuk wrote:After discussions with a friend from space, cuneiform will probably remain as the script used for magical script, but as to another script, what about Glagolitic?
I like the exotic look of the characters in that language.
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Blarumyrran » July 9th, 2009, 3:19 am

You seem to be going for realism; but as it is 72*72, you might want to use pixel-artish exaggerations in some areas. Eg when a light & dark area meet at a corner, you might want to exaggerate the edge by making the light area immediately near the corner (eg 1-pixel-wide strip from the corner) lighter than the rest of the light area (it is easier to do that kind of highlights on horizontal & vertical & 45-degree lines than on lines of some more arbitrary degree though, & if the light area is not wide enough it will look weird).

I used to like exotic alphabets too when i was smaller, and thought that geez & etruscan & thateasterislandscript were way cool; but for quite a few years now i think no alphabet looks as pretty as the latin one in the links (every alphabet can look ugly if you use some ugly typface like arial, of course; this is one of my favorites).

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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Turuk » July 9th, 2009, 3:31 am

The alphabet was chosen because the sign can say whatever it wants and still be applicable in all settings, as the player will see a nearly dead language and not even think to attempt to translate it.
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Re: Melinath's Scenery: signposts.

Post by Blarumyrran » July 9th, 2009, 3:35 am

Turuk wrote:The alphabet was chosen because the sign can say whatever it wants and still be applicable in all settings, as the player will see a nearly dead language and not even think to attempt to translate it.
It would allow for some nice easter eggs with the text if latin alphabet was used in some obscure language & with some non-modern font instead; i dont see what would be bad about it.

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