Valkiers portraits: It's like I can touch you!

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thespaceinvader
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by thespaceinvader »

It's not about the titles. If that's all you're here for, you're here for the wrong reasons. It's as simple as that. If you're here to practice your skills in order to improve a game you enjoy, and a project that you admire, that's cool. If you're here for props and praise and shiny trinkets... That's a disappointment. I hope that you will reconsider. The project values your work.

To echo what others have said: the Art Development section is not some sort of special honour. It's a place where people who we trust to give good, honest critique can help artists to work, without needless noise from the peanut gallery intruding on their work. Its being posted there isn't a secret (it's publicly viewable, as was always the intention) it was simply intended to avoid this kind of discussion polluting work on a potentially valuable set of images. The simplest way to allow him to post in that section is to add him to the forum group.

However, if you truly feel you have to quit mainline, please stick around and do some UMC work - I'm sure any number of authors would value mainline-quality portraits - and continue to critique sensitively, that's something we also value highly.
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by Sapient »

Well, not sure if this helps or not. Anyways, Earth Wyrm was also given Art Contributer status before any of his/her work was accepted into the game. So there is a precedent for it. The reason was exactly the same: to prevent a lot of distraction from people posting inappropriate/unwanted comments and to help with productivity.

I can imagine how many "orc don't look like that" posts we'd get if AP had posted it in this forum instead of the restricted one. Depending on who the artist is, that can lead to problems. The Art Development forum is designed to sidestep those problems and help some artists stay focused who don't want all that distraction. So it was supposed to help retain artists, but, in this case, it looks like the policy backfired in an unintended way.

Yes, I agree that it would have been nice to know who AP was when he started posting art. But, how does that (not knowing who he was) merit this extreme reaction? Remember there is a "credits" link at the top of this page. That is more accurate, and is distributed with the game. So I think credit is given where it is due, forum titles notwithstanding. If the forum administrators were to make a change to forum titles, it probably still wouldn't satisfy everyone, so I doubt that is a real solution, but I am curious exactly what you had in mind.
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Valkier
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by Valkier »

As I said, I've already spoken my mind on the circumstance. The only course of action left to me is to somehow quote myself harder, but I don't see a button for that. It does seem as though some of you selective read what I posted and ignored the parts that make me sound less petty. That's fine. The bottom line is I don't agree at all with what has happened here, and mostly the responses back have been accusing me of placing too much weight on a title. A title so important to me that I disappeared for a few months while wearing it no less. I suppose I'll settle for trying to find a more diplomatic approach to stating the disagreement.

Only thing I ask for at this point is that we have a discussion about it instead of a fist fight. So far it seems most of us not on the administration side agree that we would have liked some kind of heads up on this new person. I do hope that everyone understands that the reason it sounds like this was all hush hush is because he is getting payed, and nobody wanted to mention it. It seems almost impossible to not see, given that view point, that it does in fact appear as though something was trying to be kept hidden from those who do this for free.

Note: The title doesn't mean much of anything. The only reason I brought it up before is it made this all the more suspicious. As for the payment? I don't see why I don't have the right to be upset. Others and myself have shown we can work within the mainline style, so it seems odd not to work with people already here. Any one of us would also love to be payed for it as well. I can't speak for others, but I don't plan to devote the remainder of my 20's so that I can give freebies to a game the rest of my life. Please understand that while the act of creation and learning is an amazing reward unto itself, it does not pay student loans or put food in my fridge.

This last part is going to be on a more personal note. I knew full well that this is open source and did not expect compensation for what I contribute. The flip side to this is that I took initiative and showed interest. I was the one that came to you guys and contributed my knowledge and expertise to willfully try to improve a game I enjoy. When I do this, and then see someone go out and offer money to someone who has shown no prior interest to the game, it becomes frustrating to me. I don't know AP or what he is capable of as an artist, but I do know he wasn't here until someone gave him a payday to look forward to. I simply feel that this course of action is counter intuitive to a project that relies on a dedicated community for growth.

I guess I should make a quick note of this: I don't have any ill feelings towards AP in any of this. He's doing what he is payed for, and I have no reason to fault him for that. I am looking at the people who had the money, and those that didn't stand up and at least explain the situation. There is no reason to insult me or them no matter where your feelings lie on the matter. The only thing that can and should be done is make the feelings aware so that this does not happen again.
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by Cloud »

May I be the first to say this, but if you do decide to go, you will be missed Valkier. You've done a great job of the undead portraits, but you won't be missed just for that.

Secondly, my personal feelings on the titles is that they're meant to inspire both the owner of that title, and the 'normal' users who are interested in their own work. Though all crit is valid, if it's made by one of these users it seems more prominant (urgh not quite the right word, can't think this morning).

I am neutral on the subject of AP, I agree with Valkier's view to an extent, but can see why the descion was made and trust in out moderators. I do think the titles should be earnt (then again I'm not quite sure I actually deserve my title when I got it, I might just have earnt it now with the fighter hammer anim) I might have taken a different route myself, but at the end of the day it wasn't up to me to decide and I'm not going to lose sleep over that.
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by Zarel »

thespaceinvader wrote:However, if you truly feel you have to quit mainline, please stick around and do some UMC work - I'm sure any number of authors would value mainline-quality portraits - and continue to critique sensitively, that's something we also value highly.
Valkier wrote:If this is how we are to be treated, then all further work I do is for UMC only.
...just wanted to get that out of the way. Okay. So.
Valkier wrote:Only thing I ask for at this point is that we have a discussion about it instead of a fist fight. So far it seems most of us not on the administration side agree that we would have liked some kind of heads up on this new person. I do hope that everyone understands that the reason it sounds like this was all hush hush is because he is getting payed, and nobody wanted to mention it. It seems almost impossible to not see, given that view point, that it does in fact appear as though something was trying to be kept hidden from those who do this for free.
It seems to me that it only seemed that way because no one thought it was important enough to mention publicly. Mistakes like that happen often.
Valkier wrote:This last part is going to be on a more personal note. I knew full well that this is open source and did not expect compensation for what I contribute. The flip side to this is that I took initiative and showed interest. I was the one that came to you guys and contributed my knowledge and expertise to willfully try to improve a game I enjoy. When I do this, and then see someone go out and offer money to someone who has shown no prior interest to the game, it becomes frustrating to me. I don't know AP or what he is capable of as an artist, but I do know he wasn't here until someone gave him a payday to look forward to. I simply feel that this course of action is counter intuitive to a project that relies on a dedicated community for growth.
I'll agree it's rather frustrating that someone else was paid for doing something to a project that you've contributed more to for free, but I still don't see what the project staff has to do with it. As far as I know, it was all Lendrick, right down to him choosing -AP- before anyone could recommend it.

That's still how I'm reading Jetrel:
Jetrel wrote:We have no right to tell some outside contributor what do with his money; if he decided it was better to bring in outside talent, then that's his decision, not ours. He and I were just discussing how that was a shame, and he should have considered hiring someone from the team, but you can't well call it off after you've already hired someone. He already did, so we'd be screwing someone else over if we fired them.
Am I misinterpreting something?
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by doofus-01 »

Valkier wrote:I simply feel that this course of action is counter intuitive to a project that relies on a dedicated community for growth.
These were my thoughts too. I think I understand how this all happened, and there are no bad-guys. But is the volunteer community aspect worth anything? I thought so, but I admit I'm not an expert. What I do know is that I'm not likely to contribute to an endeavor where individuals are hired from the outside, and given the same desk as the volunteers. It's not about merit badges or anything, it's about not being a chump. The contributions are largely for fun, but there is an element of bending them to what others want and trying to be helpful. You can have fun without contributing.

I'd like to ask a question of any art or music contributor:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the paid hire of outside artists (or musicians) not previously associated with the project make you less likely to volunteer your contributions in the future?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe there is something to be learned from this. For art directors, patrons, contributors and all.

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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by melinath »

Valkier:
This is how I see things. Correct me if I'm wrong. What I hear from you is that:
  • It's not about the title
  • It's not about the money
  • It's about the principle of the thing and the process involved.
Valkier wrote:So far it seems most of us not on the administration side agree that we would have liked some kind of heads up on this new person.
I've read AP's thread in the Art Dev section. It seems like some of his responses to your questions implied that he had been invited by the devs to come here and save us all with his mighty not-for-free services.

But I highly doubt that there was a concerted effort to keep anyone in the dark about this. Communication in Wesnoth is complex. There are the forums. There's IRC. There's email, I'd imagine. Some people use AIM. Communicating with just the people who have to know something is probably enough work (correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.) If this was supposed to be hush-hush, then Jetrel would not have responded with a detailed explanation of the situation as soon as he had the opportunity.

People aren't perfect. Maybe someone could have handled this differently. But what do you want? You want it never to happen again? Sweet. Cause here's something Jetrel said recently:
Jetrel wrote:He and I were just discussing how that was a shame, and he should have considered hiring someone from the team, but you can't well call it off after you've already hired someone. He already did, so we'd be screwing someone else over if we fired them.
Jetrel wrote:no one from the current wesnoth community was considered (including myself), although in retrospect that might have been a nice idea, we are still going forward with this specific one.
To me at least, this implies that your feelings have been shared with the relevant parties and that everyone is in agreement that current contributers should have at least been considered. So if this situation comes up again, there's a good chance that more of an effort will be made to give everyone the heads-up. (Is that correct, people in charge?)

Personally, I think AP could have introduced himself more thoroughly. But I also remember what it was like when I first joined the forums. It can be rough jumping into a community like this.

In short, sure, things maybe could've been handled better. But the situation is what it is. We can either accept the guy and take advantage of the contribution of time and personpower that Lendrick made in hiring him, or we can make him feel unwelcome, probably ruin his day, and maybe not have his help any more. People make mistakes and unintentionally offend each other, especially on the internet. Maybe take some time, drink a cup of tea, and come back and look at this again? Can you accept the situation for what it is and move on? (Assuming I'm anywhere close to correctly portraying what the situation is. :wink: )

That being said, I think doofus asks an interesting question. Hmm.
As someone who has contributed writing and the basis for a piece of art, I am not at all offended by AP - because he isn't really hired - at least, not by Wesnoth. I think that Wesnoth hiring outside help would be bizarre and contrary to everything the project stands for. I don't think it would keep me from trying to contribute, but maybe. Here, though, the guy was hired by someone else entirely. I think it would be odd not to graciously accept the gift. It is still somewhat a bizarre situation, but w/e. It's an isolated event.

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thespaceinvader
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by thespaceinvader »

Having said what i said earlier (and I stand by that), I'd like to add a couple of items.

Firstly: I had no knowledge of the decisions which were made about this. What you know, I know.

Secondly: I've had some further time to consider things, and some further discussion with a few people. I can see where you're coming from, Valkier. My own dedication to the project sometimes blinkers me, I fear - whatever goes on behind or in front of the scenes, I'm in this for the long haul. I'm dedicated to the game. This means that I sometimes tend to look at things in the terms of what is best for the project, and sometimes it takes me a couple of glances to see the people behind the posts. I doubt I'm the only one.

Thirdly: I can see the logic behind the decisions that have been made. They're not the decisions I would have made, and had it not been for my immensely busy schedule this term, I would have done my best to change what happened. But I wasn't here, so I couldn't. They could have been made differently, and caused fewer problems. I wouldn't argue with that.

I'd like to say more, but I really don't feel this is the place. Such discussions will inevitably be divisive, and foster discontent, which can ony harm the project. You all know where you can catch me, and my door is always open (at least, when I'm on IRC, anyway), and I'm happy to be contacted by PM. I hope to be a voice of moderation. I hope you can understand, the only side I try to take is that of the Wesnoth project, and what is in its best interests.
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An apology, and an explanation...

Post by ceninan »

I am one of the administrators of OpenGameArt.org, and I would like to apologize to the Wesnoth community.

I will readily admit we made (at least) two mistakes. One is that we did not properly explain the situation beforehand. Like Zarel mentioned, this simply slipped our mind, and we apologize for it to both the Wesnoth community and to -AP-. The second is that we did not consider the possibility of approaching one of the artists in the Wesnoth community. In retrospect, it seems like an obvious thing to do; who would not be glad to be paid to work on something they enjoy? The reason is probably that OGA is a project of its own, with a larger perspective than the latest commision. Far from all FOSS projects have a vibrant and talented community like Wesnoth does, and we want to encourage artists that shows interest in our cause, which includes helping out less popular projects. -AP- has been around for a while, and it felt right giving him the opportunity. Still, it is obvious we should have done so in this case, and once again I apologize that we did not. We did not mean to offend anyone.

I also want to make clear this is a donation to Wesnoth; the Wesnoth staff did not request it, and neither will they pay anything for it. The Art Development forums was determined to be the best place to guide the process. Perhaps it would have been better if a there were a title less permanent sounding than "Art Contributor". I also want to remind you to keep -AP- out of this; he only did what was asked of him. The mistake is ours.
doofus-01 wrote:Would the paid hire of outside artists (or musicians) not previously associated with the project make you less likely to volunteer your contributions in the future?
We are also very interested to hear your opinions on this, and also if it would be different if the artists/musicians came from within the community, or if money is a bad idea overall?
doofus-01 wrote:Maybe there is something to be learned from this. For art directors, patrons, contributors and all.
Agreed.

We are new at this, and we are humans; we can and will make mistakes.

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Re: An apology, and an explanation...

Post by Valkier »

ceninan wrote:I am one of the administrators of OpenGameArt.org, and I would like to apologize to the Wesnoth community.

I will readily admit we made (at least) two mistakes. One is that we did not properly explain the situation beforehand. Like Zarel mentioned, this simply slipped our mind, and we apologize for it to both the Wesnoth community and to -AP-. The second is that we did not consider the possibility of approaching one of the artists in the Wesnoth community. In retrospect, it seems like an obvious thing to do; who would not be glad to be paid to work on something they enjoy? The reason is probably that OGA is a project of its own, with a larger perspective than the latest commision. Far from all FOSS projects have a vibrant and talented community like Wesnoth does, and we want to encourage artists that shows interest in our cause, which includes helping out less popular projects. -AP- has been around for a while, and it felt right giving him the opportunity. Still, it is obvious we should have done so in this case, and once again I apologize that we did not. We did not mean to offend anyone.

I also want to make clear this is a donation to Wesnoth; the Wesnoth staff did not request it, and neither will they pay anything for it. The Art Development forums was determined to be the best place to guide the process. Perhaps it would have been better if a there were a title less permanent sounding than "Art Contributor". I also want to remind you to keep -AP- out of this; he only did what was asked of him. The mistake is ours.
doofus-01 wrote:Would the paid hire of outside artists (or musicians) not previously associated with the project make you less likely to volunteer your contributions in the future?
We are also very interested to hear your opinions on this, and also if it would be different if the artists/musicians came from within the community, or if money is a bad idea overall?
doofus-01 wrote:Maybe there is something to be learned from this. For art directors, patrons, contributors and all.
Agreed.

We are new at this, and we are humans; we can and will make mistakes.
It's good to hear something from the other half of the disagreement. I'm not sure anyone actually blamed AP for anything going on, but I did try to make sure to make a distinction between blaming him, and blaming the ones that hired him. He shouldn't be drug through the mud for any of this.

Really my aim with all this chaos was to get the idea across that those of us that contribute should be the ones to be offered this kind of thing first. As I said, it's something we want to do, proven by simply being here, and it only makes sense that if there's a reward to have we have a fair shot at it. I in no way intended for this to somehow take away the opportunity for AP to do his thing. The only thing that can and should happen to him is we critique what he does till we have something everyone would care to see in game.

While I am still irritated by how the whole thing took place, I'm smart enough to recognize that the best "resolution" that could happen, has. I think the point has been made about how this type of thing should be handled in the future, and that it shouldn't and doesn't have to happen in the first place. I don't mind going back to making portraits at this point in time. While I completely understand if any other art contributors are still angry and feel a tinge mistreated, there's really nothing else to be done about it. You should decide if you're comfortable with how this resolved and make your decision from there.

Thanks to everyone that did put forth an effort to rationally discuss the issue and get both sides to be heard.
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by Turuk »

*Whistles*

This may be of interest to all those concerned...

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Valkier
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by Valkier »

I don't know if anyone can use this, but I figured I'd post it here and see. It's not done yet or anything, but I'd be willing to make a Wesnoth version of it afterwords if there is a place for it in anyones UMC or mainline. Just let me know.
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by Sangel »

Wow, nice portrait. He immediately puts me in mind of some of the units from Invasion from the Unknown. Like this guy:
dark-knight.png
dark-knight.png (1.42 KiB) Viewed 1790 times
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by Turuk »

Horns are different and no sword, but those are minor sprite to portrait details that do not really matter, it's quite fitting.
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Re: Valkiers portraits: Draug incoming

Post by Valkier »

Looks like a good match to me. Done and done!
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