The Hammer of Thursagan portrait repaints

[Sgt. Groovy]

There are some problems with saturation contrasts. For example, you have some shadow parts of skin with very low saturation values, which makes them looks almost gray and very non-livinglike. Skin is very translucent material, and to make it look like that requires higher saturations in shadow parts. Meanwhile, the emroideries on the tunic are too saturated, which makes them look light emitting instead of reflecting. There are some other parts too that are oversaturated, like the staff and the belt buckle, and some parts where there are no significant saturation contrast between light and shadow areas.

That, and the inconsistencies in light direction JW mentioned. The general colour scheme is pretty good, though.

[DUHH]

Oh, the lighting inconsintencies are intended. The main lighting is from the top right, but the staff also will give out a light. Haven´t painted it in yet, so I guess I was counting on your psychic abilities to understand it. Hmmm...

You´re right about the saturation though.

[LordBob]

Same as Groovy, I like the overal colour scheme. Still, some items make my eye want to cower under the blanket

The main drawback of your picture is that the highlights of every area have approximately the same intensity. This makes the picture difficult to read because the eye is drawn everywhere at once. I think your picture would benefit from an overall shadow : keep clear highlights in places closest to the lightsources so that you guide the reader's eye where you want it to be.

Other than that, a few quick points :
- the golden edge of his cloak seems to hover an inch above the fabric, probably because it doesn't receive the same intensity of light (the fabric darkens as if in a gap, whereas the saturated edge suggests a swelling)
- the pouch in the bottom-left corner is in very high contrast with the armpit region when both should receive similar light.
- the highlights on his purple scarf (?) give it a swollen look that the eye does not expect for cloth. Thinner highlights, such as satin might offer better results.

[esr]

Author of THoT checking in here.

My first reaction to the attempt at the new Perrin portrait was "Wow. Gorgeous, overall, but the shadows on his face are really obtrusive!"

After staring at it for a while, and imagining what it would be like with that fixed, I still like the overall composition - but not necessarily for Perrin. I'm divided in my mind about this, but I might want to use it for one of the king's counsellors in Delfador's Memoirs. Or possibly that's what should become of the existing portrait. Would you be OK with it being repurposed?

The thing about the new portrait is that he's heavy; he looks like a worldly man accustomed to rich living. Not so good for Perrin, who I imagined as kindly and a bit ascetic - but perfect for a royal counselor.

Looking back in the thread...I like the sketch for Dulcatulos a lot. He's conscientious, well-meaning, not overly bright, and would really prefer not to get involved with stuff above his pay grade. That is a plausible interpretation of the sketch.

I like the direction you're going with Angarthing. I have one specific feature I want in that portrait, though, and that is that his eyes need to be emphasized, a foreground feature. He is a witness; he sees things. That's what he does.

I have mixed feelings about the Aiglondur portrait. On the one hand, the handling of the armor and weapons is a big improvement on the existing one. And the face is good. On the other hand, I have two problems with it.

1. I'm not happy with the pose. Profile, looking downward. Makes him look pensive, which he isn't. He's above-average bright for a dwarf and more flexible-minded than the norm, but action-oriented and extroverted.

2. I don't like the heraldry, it's too human. I think a dwarf shield should feature runic sigils, or those odd almost cabalistic-looking geometric signs you get in Polish-Lithuanian heraldry.

I hope this is useful feedback and doesn't seem overly critical. I'm really pretty flattered that anyone wants to put in the effort on these; I thought you'd appreciate some psychological cues.

[kitty]

of course it is DUHH's privilege to answer esr's post, but i want to add some of my experiences working with campaign authors.


having the author come to you with these kind of wishes and demands is incredibly frustrating.
there are already a lot of time and work invested, you played through the camapign, tried to get a feeling and image of the characters and did something true to your understanding of them and suddenly it is wrong and you are to be changing stuff you decided to be right and fitting for the characters as you experienced them.

there are only two ways to solve this: either the author invests some time before the portrait artists starts to work and writes extensive character descriptions including age, outward appearance, important items, wheapons and every other characteristic or he has to live with whatever the artist comes up with and this way they share the creation of the characters.
when you work the first way it is fair for the author to ask for changes on the portraits until they roughly fit his vision, but if your work the latter way it is not, because stepping in after the work is done and then starting to tell that something isn't true to your vision is neither fair nor reasonable. both ways can be rewarding but it has to be clear *before* the work begins for the artist.

[esr]

either the author invests some time before the portrait artists starts to work and writes extensive character descriptions including age, outward appearance, important items, wheapons and every other characteristic or he has to live with whatever the artist comes up

How do I do what you recommend if I don't actually know in advance that someone is going to be working from my material?

I see your point, and I really don't want to create more difficulty for the artists...but it leaves me in an impossible position if an artist can attach himself to my campaign, do work I'm not entirely happy with, and I'm expected not to make "demands" because I didn't know it was going to happen.

You're really telling me there's no place for constructive criticism from campaign authors?

[kitty]

You're really telling me there's no place for constructive criticism from campaign authors?

No. I only told about my experiences of working with authors - perhaps you and DUHH find a completely other working model that fits both of you.

How do I do what you recommend if I don't actually know in advance that someone is going to be working from my material?

Get in touch with the artist as soon as you get to know that s/he works on your material (or ideally the artist should contact the author on his own initiative) and discuss how both of you want your liaison to work. I only want to promote to talk abot these questions and the embodiment of the characters as early as possible to avoid the artist having done work that the author doesn't want to use and the resulting frustrations.

[thespaceinvader]

esr: I did point you to the thread on IRC when the first sketches were being done. Beyond that, I leave it entirely up to you to follow it. I gave the artist a long list of things which were priorities, notes you'd given me, and things which were less important, basically along the lines of what I'd have used if I'd been reworking them as I planned to - I gave DUHH the opportunity to rework these portraits because his style rocks, and I knew I'd not have time to get to them for several months.

[zookeeper]

either the author invests some time before the portrait artists starts to work and writes extensive character descriptions including age, outward appearance, important items, wheapons and every other characteristic or he has to live with whatever the artist comes up

How do I do what you recommend if I don't actually know in advance that someone is going to be working from my material?

I see your point, and I really don't want to create more difficulty for the artists...but it leaves me in an impossible position if an artist can attach himself to my campaign, do work I'm not entirely happy with, and I'm expected not to make "demands" because I didn't know it was going to happen.

You're really telling me there's no place for constructive criticism from campaign authors?

So you mean that no one told you early enough that someone was working on the portraits and also that you don't check the forums on your own?

I guess that's possible, but then again the artist isn't really to blame for assuming that people interested in knowing about their work will notice it as long as he's posting it in the right place (which is quite without question this forum, for mainline art).

[esr]

So you mean that no one told you early enough that someone was working on the portraits and also that you don't check the forums on your own?

Basically, yeah, that's it. I didn't know "DUHH" existed until I stumbled over this thread. thespaceinvader claims he tried to inform me, but I thought it was him working on the portraits.

I guess that's possible, but then again the artist isn't really to blame for assuming that people interested in knowing about their work will notice it as long as he's posting it in the right place (which is quite without question this forum, for mainline art).

I have no desire to blame the artist for anything. But I am not just a random nitpicker, I am the author, and I want art that serves the story at least roughly as I imagined it.

[DUHH]

Sorry you feel you weren´t properly informed about the repaints. I´m new here and started to do these portraits by request, so I didn´t even consider the possibility of the author not knowing.

I have no problems with suggestions and opinions from the author. In fact I welcome it.

I tried to follow the notes you had given to TSI, but they were not very spesific. If you have spesific desires for the characters as you now note, then you have to write them down in detail, otherwise no artist can follow them.

Things should be done at the right time. For instance, Aiglondurs pose is too late to fix. And in fact I´m not sure about the intrepretation you give of it. I don´t think there´s anything in his pose that excludes him from beeing "above-average bright for a dwarf and more flexible-minded than the norm, but action-oriented and extroverted".

The shield, however, is something that can be fixed. If you post some links and descriptions the type of heraldry you want, it´s no problem changing it.

Regarding Perrin I´ve had two descriptions:

Ratheln and Perrin: I;d be quite happy to see these two scrapped and replaced by kitty's Mage portraits. Consider them lower priority than the rest, but all the same, some unique ones would be nice. Ratheln shoudl be pretty wild, and I like the idea of him wearing an uncured animal pelt he killed himself whilst trapped in the mountains.

Master Perrin: The master of a school of magic. Wise and kindly. An Albus Dumbledore in Wesnoth, basically.

Nothing there suggests any sort of ascetic lifestyle. In fact, based on the descriptions I tried to make the robes close to Kitty´s arch-mages, and adding some elements(Like the necklace) from TSI´s old portraits.

There are some pretty easy cosmetic changes I can do, like take away the golden parts and the jewelry. Maybe even redesign the robe to be a more monk´ish robe, but that takes more work.

Again, had I gotten this info a bit earlier, more things could be changed.

I´d prefer to keep this portrait as Perrin, since I would like to finish the portraits for this story as soon as possible, and perhaps even do some story-art for it.

Angarthings eyes are already twice the size of the other dwarven eyes I draw, and I plan to emphasize them in the coloring as well, so that will be taken care of.

If you have further ideas you want to discuss in more detail for the portraits or the story-art, then shoot my a PM and we can arrange some way of discussing it. Or just post comments here as soon as possible after the art has been posted. OK?

Author of THoT checking in here.

My first reaction to the attempt at the new Perrin portrait was "Wow. Gorgeous, overall, but the shadows on his face are really obtrusive!"

After staring at it for a while, and imagining what it would be like with that fixed, I still like the overall composition - but not necessarily for Perrin. I'm divided in my mind about this, but I might want to use it for one of the king's counsellors in Delfador's Memoirs. Or possibly that's what should become of the existing portrait. Would you be OK with it being repurposed?

The thing about the new portrait is that he's heavy; he looks like a worldly man accustomed to rich living. Not so good for Perrin, who I imagined as kindly and a bit ascetic - but perfect for a royal counselor.

Looking back in the thread...I like the sketch for Dulcatulos a lot. He's conscientious, well-meaning, not overly bright, and would really prefer not to get involved with stuff above his pay grade. That is a plausible interpretation of the sketch.

I like the direction you're going with Angarthing. I have one specific feature I want in that portrait, though, and that is that his eyes need to be emphasized, a foreground feature. He is a witness; he sees things. That's what he does.

I have mixed feelings about the Aiglondur portrait. On the one hand, the handling of the armor and weapons is a big improvement on the existing one. And the face is good. On the other hand, I have two problems with it.

1. I'm not happy with the pose. Profile, looking downward. Makes him look pensive, which he isn't. He's above-average bright for a dwarf and more flexible-minded than the norm, but action-oriented and extroverted.

2. I don't like the heraldry, it's too human. I think a dwarf shield should feature runic sigils, or those odd almost cabalistic-looking geometric signs you get in Polish-Lithuanian heraldry.

I hope this is useful feedback and doesn't seem overly critical. I'm really pretty flattered that anyone wants to put in the effort on these; I thought you'd appreciate some psychological cues.

[esr]

Sorry you feel you weren´t properly informed about the repaints. I´m new here and started to do these portraits by request, so I didn´t even consider the possibility of the author not knowing.

I attach no blame whatsoever to you. And I should note that while I have some design issues as I've noted, I think your execution is very good.

I have no problems with suggestions and opinions from the author. In fact I welcome it.

Good. If you end up working on my stuff again, lets make sure we collaborate more closely and start earlier in the process.

I tried to follow the notes you had given to TSI, but they were not very spesific. If you have spesific desires for the characters as you now note, then you have to write them down in detail, otherwise no artist can follow them.

Fair enough. But you have to understand, an author won't necessarily be fully conscious about some of this stuff until he sees an image - character construction doesn't work that way, you discover things about your characters as often as you invent things (especially later in their development).

Then, too, when you're writing hints it's hard to know what to write down, sometimes, and where to stop. I think this sort of thing is probably best handled by real-time chart (so the artist can ask questions) with a log for later reference.

Things should be done at the right time. For instance, Aiglondurs pose is too late to fix.

It'll have to do, then.

Nothing there suggests any sort of ascetic lifestyle. In fact, based on the descriptions I tried to make the robes close to Kitty´s arch-mages, and adding some elements(Like the necklace) from TSI´s old portraits. [/wquote]

And indeed, I'm not sure I would have known it wasn't quite right for Perrin to look sleek and portly before I saw the image.

There are some pretty easy cosmetic changes I can do, like take away the golden parts and the jewelry. Maybe even redesign the robe to be a more monk´ish robe, but that takes more work.

Save the full-boat version, though; we might be able to mod it in a different direction and use it as a counsellor.

As for Perrin himself: here's a perfect example of some things that are true about the character but I couldn't have told you before the question came up. He will cheerfully wear one piece of really impressive jewelry - a chain of office - but personal ostentation is not his style. He's not ascetic in the strong sense that he believes in self-morttification, but he's self-disciplined and dislikes excess. Part of this is his notion the proper example a teacher should set for his students: moderation, thoughtfulness, self-control. The man is very difficult to separate from his job.

I´d prefer to keep this portrait as Perrin, since I would like to finish the portraits for this story as soon as possible, and perhaps even do some story-art for it.

Let's work together on the other stuff and return to this issue later.

Angarthings eyes are already twice the size of the other dwarven eyes I draw, and I plan to emphasize them in the coloring as well, so that will be taken care of.

Good enough.

If you have further ideas you want to discuss in more detail for the portraits or the story-art, then shoot my a PM and we can arrange some way of discussing it. Or just post comments here as soon as possible after the art has been posted. OK?

Can you do IRC? If so, we could set up a real-time conference to kick around ideas.

[DUHH]

I´m no regular IRC´er, but I´m sure I can figure it out.

[esr]

What time-zone are you in?

[Turuk]

Esr, perhaps in the future you can just let the users know that you are too busy to do a detailed character description now or that they should not get too far along without talking to you.

You could have just added that in on the post you made here a week and a half ago when you made the symbol for the Northern Alliance after DUHH asked. This would keep things from getting ahead of themselves and having to be corrected. Especially since the portrait of Aiglondur was in the process of being finished right above where you posted, a few pointers or wait until I talk to you would have worked.

Still, it's nice to know it can all be worked out.