My Terrain (Mine!)

[doofus-01]

Could even be 2 terrains, if necessary.

I believe it would be necessary. I don't know how to mix Xo* & Xu*, and I'm reluctant to toss the current ones & start over when I think the zigg-zagging makes sense anyway. I've drawn a quick (somewhat sloppy) patch for a new terrain 'Xom' that follows the same rules as the stone walls. If the posts/columns can be in this style, I think it can fit with the stone walls without looking broken. Making it blend seamlessly with mine walls (like making cave & stone walls transition) requires new WML that isn't trivial (I think).

Is there a consensus on this? The aquatic keeps and HttT sprites are not done, and I'll never get them done if I start new projects. A new straight wall variant might be nice, but is this really the one to work on?

[zookeeper]

The stone walls have the problem of being way too intrusive into adjacent hexes. If you just place a single hex then it doesn't look like it's that big, but when the straight diagonal tiles get used as well, they eat away huge parts of adjacent hexes. I'd definitely advice against using them as a template for new terrains as such. First, someone should minimize them to be as compact as possible.

In any case, I'd think finishing the current projects first would be wiser.

[vultraz]

Zookeeper raises a valid point, but I think that wooden variation looks great either way

[doofus-01]

Thanks. OK, I'll steer clear of the stone walls. When they are re-done, is there any reason they can't use the NEW:WALL macro, like the other walls? I think they could then be made to transition with the other walls, especially if they don't have to have hard hex-edge cut-offs. The macro they currently use has seven hexes instead of three, so it might not be possible, unless we start over.

Well, I guess it is something for another day...

In other news, I added some variations and better-cropped aquatic castle images in PR#814. I think they are finished, but if there is anything left to do, and someone can let me know soon...

[vultraz]

For the record, I don't have any problem with the current wall design. But am I to understand you'll be putting aside the wooden mine walls until the stone walls are fixed?

[doofus-01]

But am I to understand you'll be putting aside the wooden mine walls until the stone walls are fixed?

Yes. It might be possible to make a set of Xo*/Xu* transitions with NEW:WALL2, I'm not sure. But it would be far easier to just have everyone using the same macros, and since the stone walls need to be fixed anyway, it seems like good time to do that.

I'll look into it.
EDIT:
I've tried to paste the current stone-wall images into the NEW:WALL method used for the other cave walls, and I think this is going to work. There are some shortcomings, like the due north/south facing crotches, but if that is all, special rules can be written because it is not that much of a hack. The straight walls will always clip a lot of the adjacent hex, but it can be better than it currently is. There may need to be some chaos in the upper rims to avoid obvious misalignments.

this may be a bit 'inside-baseball'; the CURRENT image obviously looks better.:

small_walls_NEW.jpg

small_walls_CURRENT.jpg

EDIT2:
I've got them as small as they'll go, I believe. The files are attached. The crotch/corner cases still need something to be done, might be possible to just crop images with WML.

Spoiler:

small_walls_NEW.jpg

[doofus-01]

https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/817 has the (proposed) less encroaching stone walls. Here is a screen-shot (I'm removing the WIP images above):

Spoiler:

In the PR, I have not removed the old stone wall image files, and I have just commented out the old lines in terrain-graphics.cfg, so it should be easy to compare. The little alcoves make for some awkward connections at times, but they keep the above/below hex clear, and they can be a good place to put decorations.

[vultraz]

So, after looking more at this, I feel like the old style was best. It allowed for unique and interesting dungeon designs, and this destroys all of that. It also makes the walls awkward and oddly shaped. I feel zookeeper's complaints of hexes being covered aren't that much of an issue, and I would propose we stick with the old design.

[doofus-01]

It allowed for unique and interesting dungeon designs, and this destroys all of that.

I completely disagree with all of that, but "interesting" is subjective, so fair enough. If that's the consensus, I'll stay away from walls, no problem.
But I'll at least wait to see what zookeeper says.

[Sire]

As a person who enjoys making aesthetically pleasing maps, how about making two wall variants such as "Big Wall" and "Small Wall"? Mappers can use the current big walls for imposing dungeons and the like, while others can use the small walls and add emphasis on the surrounded terrain. It may even be possible to combine the two to make more unique layouts.

Of course, this brings in the issue of what is standard and if new "wall types" require big and small versions, but it is an idea.

[zookeeper]

What I meant by making the walls more compact was simply to shift the north-facing walls down as much as possible, the south-facing walls up as much as possible, and so on. Unless I'm missing something, it looks like there's room for about 10px of shift both up and down. While I personally wouldn't mind the walls being more hex-shaped, it would be a big change in aesthetics and the alcoves would make them look pretty weird in many cases.

Also, there's something about the layering that makes them draw over parts of the hex grid like no other terrain, and it'd be great if that could be fixed too. I haven't investigated what the precise cause of that is.

[doofus-01]

OK, I misunderstood the "compact" concerns. I won't take more guesses on the issue, but I doubt I'll make it worse.

it would be a big change in aesthetics

A good enough reason not to have alcoves, I guess.

and if new "wall types" require big and small versions

Despite all the enthusiasm, I'm going ahead with this, because it will help transition with the cave walls.

[Shiki]

Hello Doofus.
I'm a big fan if the merfolk terrains you made recently (and the lava chasm tranistions)
They still miss submege=0.x
Looking at other terrains, it should be 0.3 for Cme and 0.4 for Cm&Km.
But then I was testing that I felt 0.4 would be to much, but this may be very subjective.
Could you maybe have a look at that?
Best before it get's availble to a larger audience with the 1.13.6 release which is planned for sunday.
Right now I could see the the Cm terrain as well as Castles with fancy floor instead of water (which looks good too)

About the last posts, I think the old design looks better.
I see that wesnoth in general has this 6hex principle, but maybe here it even looks better because it does break with that.
In any case, it looks with the old design like an awesome dungeon.

PS: If you still plan to add animated water the castle, I think it's a great idea.

[zookeeper]

Thanks for the reminder, I went and added submerge values for them.

[doofus-01]

PS: If you still plan to add animated water the castle, I think it's a great idea.

It would be nice, but here's the problem:

The numbers indicate how many images are in the hex. A new tool in editor, by zookeeper.

aquatic-image-number.png (289.95 KiB) Viewed 3960 times

If the number of bitmaps in the hex is an issue, and they need to be redrawn constantly for the animations, this will cause too much lag when interacting with waves, and these castles will usually be next to water. At least that's my understanding now.