My Terrain (Mine!)

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doofus-01
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by doofus-01 » November 5th, 2017, 3:11 am

To the best of my knowledge, blue was a difficult color to obtain in the good old days, so I'm happy to keep royal rug in the blue range.

I've got two more variations, though they aren't finished (the red carpet isn't even in the PR yet), but they are concrete enough to talk about:
Screenshot_005.jpg
The red arrows point to extra-problematic regions with standard hex-terrains as underlayers.
I'm not sure what the best underlayer for the rough gray carpet is, the dark flagstones was just the simplest sane undergrounds terrain, WML-wise. The red arrows show an issue with using standard terrains as an underlayer rather than one of the "interior" terrains (though the "interior" terrains still suffer a bit.) It can be solved with finalizing the underlayer, but as of now, the images are all overlays.

I think 3 carpets is enough, so let's make these work.
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » November 5th, 2017, 3:48 pm

So um, are you implying that we won't be able to use the red carpet on flagstones or the blue carpet on wood floor?
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by doofus-01 » November 6th, 2017, 2:07 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:So um, are you implying that we won't be able to use the red carpet on flagstones or the blue carpet on wood floor?
Not so much implying as saying (repeatedly), but yeah. ;)
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » November 7th, 2017, 1:30 am

That's really less than ideal. Is there some reason for it?
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by beetlenaut » November 7th, 2017, 5:05 am

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Is there some reason for it?
He said earlier that the carpet is not an overlay because he wants it to be possible to put overlays on the carpet. Floor+carpet is one base terrain.
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by zookeeper » November 7th, 2017, 9:55 am

For what it's worth, I struggle to not consider the method a mistake. The carpet itself certainly looks nicer when you can have small ones and you can use them in more narrow spaces, but I fear the underlay restrictions are really going to hurt, a lot, and make the carpets unusable in so many places, especially in a cave setting.

Of course, making the carpets their own underlay does mean their transitions would eat up half of some adjacent hexes and make them unfit to be used immediately adjacent to chasms, water or really any non-flat terrains, but other than that they'd be so much more versatile.

So obviously there's no ideal solution unless someone just happens to implement support for multiple overlays.

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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by Xalzar » November 7th, 2017, 5:30 pm

May I dare say my 2 cents on this matter? You can freely ignore me if my opinion isn't deemed worthy. :hmm:

The carpets are perfect as they are, visually. I agree with Celtic Minstrel and others though in thinking it'd be better if the carpet terrain could remain an overlay; I understand the reasons behind the "fusion" of the layers in one (the desire to have overlays on the carpet), but other terrains already have that problem and are overlays.

Examples:
Now I can't have a lit grassland with flowers, or a great tree with the village overlay, or rocks and mushroom embellishment at the same time, and the solution to this is to put manually (via WML) the wanted images on the hex.

I think this needs to be the solution in this case too. :hmm:

On the other hand, I also dream of the possibilities opened by multiple overlays! :roll:

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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » November 9th, 2017, 2:02 am

What kinds of overlays would you want to put on carpets? Most of the things I can think of would be done with [item] rather than as a terrain.
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by doofus-01 » November 11th, 2017, 12:53 pm

Xalzar, Celtic_Minstrel, in regards to just using [item] for overlays: That would work for many things, but I don't think it would work for something like rubble, that changes the terrain more than just visually. Impassable & Castle overlays would surely be unavailable.

As a secondary point, there would be less control over the transitions, such as the red arrows in my last screenshot. With a set underlayer, they get dedicated images to fix such cases. Changing the current images to be used with an overlay, and forgetting about fixing such "red arrow" cases, would be pretty easy, and while there would be less-than-ideal transitions, I don't think it would look broken.
zookeeper wrote:Of course, making the carpets their own underlay does mean their transitions would eat up half of some adjacent hexes and make them unfit to be used immediately adjacent to chasms, water or really any non-flat terrains, but other than that they'd be so much more versatile.
If I understand correctly what you mean, I disagree that it would be much more versatile, in part for the very restrictions that you mentioned, and I deliberately didn't go down that path. To change it now would be to start over, and I don't want to get involved in that.

---------------------------------------------------------
I get that a set underlayer is not ideal, but neither is a carpet overlay. I guess I just saw the ledger balanced differently than other people who've commented. If the consensus is that overlay is really preferred, we can go with that.
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by Xalzar » November 11th, 2017, 2:26 pm

Fair enough.
If converting the carpet to an overlay complicates things, better leave it this way.

On an entirely different note: I don't know what are your plans in the future regarding terrains, but burnt grass/ashen soil could be a boon for the game IMHO. And I think it could not be too difficult to realize. :hmm: Feel free to completely disregard the suggestion though, I'm not here to impose anything. :doh:

Keep the good work, we need more people like you! ;)

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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » November 11th, 2017, 4:15 pm

With these carpets in place, how difficult would it be to define a new terrain for, say, the blue carpet on wood floor? If the images are kept separate and you can define new combinations easily, I don't think I'd mind it being a base terrain.



Speaking of blue carpet on wood floor, I wonder if that might actually look better than the red carpet does...
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by doofus-01 » November 12th, 2017, 1:25 am

Xalzar wrote:On an entirely different note: I don't know what are your plans in the future regarding terrains, but burnt grass/ashen soil could be a boon for the game IMHO. And I think it could not be too difficult to realize. :hmm:
Well, dirt and dry grass can kinda-sorta fill that... I guess a dirt+sparse grass+dark rubbish bits could be a new base terrain. I'll keep it in mind. I made a dead forest at one point, it's in Archaic Resources, though it's not really mainline quality.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:With these carpets in place, how difficult would it be to define a new terrain for, say, the blue carpet on wood floor? If the images are kept separate and you can define new combinations easily, I don't think I'd mind it being a base terrain.
It would be trivial, the terrain-graphics would be 1-2 lines of copy&paste. No guarantees it will look good in all situations, but swapping the stone/wood or putting a carpet in the middle of a big patch of whatever flat terrain should work. You could probably even put carpets on carpets.

I'll go squash-merge the PR in a bit, it will get test-driven more.
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by beetlenaut » November 12th, 2017, 1:53 am

If it's pretty easy, I think we should have all three colors of carpet on all three floor terrains available in the editor. We can put instructions for making other combinations in the wiki somewhere.
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by doofus-01 » November 12th, 2017, 2:21 am

beetlenaut wrote:If it's pretty easy, I think we should have all three colors of carpet on all three floor terrains available in the editor.
The problem is, that will clutter up the editor palette. Making a note in the wiki for UMC authors to edit things sounds like it can't have a downside though. I'll try to do something about that tomorrow.
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Re: My Terrain (Mine!)

Post by nemaara » March 8th, 2018, 4:07 am

Not sure if this is the right place to ask you about this, but it seems like your water terrains in Archaic Resources don't have transitions to other water terrain in 1.13.11 (see below). Are you planning on making transitions for them sometime? It would be very nice to have them (only if it's not too much trouble to do).
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