The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Sgt. Groovy » March 19th, 2009, 10:03 pm

The textures are going to change a lot, I'm doing heavy experimenting with filters ATM. Here's a peek preview of how wooden texture might look like:
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by thespaceinvader » March 19th, 2009, 10:21 pm

I'm not sure that quite looks like grain - smooth polished wood differentiates the layers of grain ased on colour, not topography, and that appears to dip down further with each grain ring. I'm not sure about the directions of the smaller hatches, either...

It strikes me that wood grain on a high quality shield, apart from any damage, would likely be a matter of colour, not texture.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Boucman » March 19th, 2009, 10:42 pm

LordBob wrote:I like the new sceptre, but the previous version is fine too : I'd like it if we coud choose between these variants in the end :)
well, IIUC we are designing the "core" symbol of the royal family, just like the "fleur de lys" for the french royal family

usually all noble families with royal blood will have it on their heraldries, usually represented differently, stylized differently etc... so if we are designing the "canonical" heraldry, I don't think all units will have to use exactly that one

esp heroes that are supposed to be of noble blood probably will have their own family variant of it..
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Simons Mith » March 19th, 2009, 10:53 pm

Boucman wrote:well, IIUC we are designing the "core" symbol of the royal family, just like the "fleur de lys" for the french royal family
If that is the case, I think it may still be far too complicated. The baseline 'sigil' for such things needs to be very simple indeed. A fleur de lys or a british-style royal lion is about as complicated as you should get. Implies we should be thinking about just the flame, or just the sceptre, perhaps? Maybe I'll have a go myself; I can do vector-style graphics.

Edit: Also, why does it have a hook on the end, and why is it so short and stumpy? It's not getting conflated with the orb, is it?

Link to regalia picture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ceske ... lenoty.jpg
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Edit2: Another take on the sceptre idea:
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Even so, the smallest varient looks like a match
Even so, the smallest varient looks like a match
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Last edited by Simons Mith on March 20th, 2009, 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 

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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by thespaceinvader » March 19th, 2009, 11:30 pm

It has a hook and is short and stumpy because of the design of the sprite sceptre, i suspect. But, I'd also say that it does add emphasis to the jewel, which is the important part.

I'd also say that heraldic emblems can get very complex. The fleur de lys is relatively simple, but the royal lion and welsh dragon, for instance, get quite complicated.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by kitty » March 20th, 2009, 12:26 am

nice improvements :D

i'm just commenting on the last version of the sign you posted - the texturizing will just need some more experimentation.

the latest version of the flames looks much better! you have found a very nice way of stylizing the flames.
what bugs me now is that the circle of the flames and the hexagon of the ruby don't harmonize well. the forms compete with each other. you'll need to find an other form of intersection between the two areas. the rivalry between the different forms gets even worse because of the hook - a square. now you have got a circle, a hexagon and a square - that's no unified use of form. your sign will get stronger if you don't design the seperate parts seperately but keep the overall shape in mind.

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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Simons Mith » March 20th, 2009, 1:49 am

If the sigil is going to be based closely on the sprite, perhaps the ruby should be round too, like it is in the sprite. After all, a ruby that size is going to have hundreds of facets anyway, so from a distance it'll just look round. To follow the sprite so faithfully on all other aspects and yet disregard that one in favour of a 'hexagonal' ruby shape is odd IMV.
 

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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Sgt. Groovy » March 20th, 2009, 9:19 am

I'm not sure that quite looks like grain - smooth polished wood differentiates the layers of grain ased on colour, not topography, and that appears to dip down further with each grain ring. I'm not sure about the directions of the smaller hatches, either...

It strikes me that wood grain on a high quality shield, apart from any damage, would likely be a matter of colour, not texture.
While it's a high quality shield, the metal parts show some wear and patina, so I'm going for a worn and battered, probably repainted wood look (besides, old piece of wood just looks more interesting than newly polished one.) The hardness of wood is different in different parts of the rings, so it wears unevenly, after time some parts start to stick out, for example like this. Or this, which is from my bookshelf, and the stripes clearly show, even though covered by an opaque layer of paint:
dscn0825.jpg
dscn0825.jpg (34.38 KiB) Viewed 2807 times

Wood is a 'living' material even when it's dead, when it gets wet and then dries many times, sometimes freezing when still wet (like what can happen to a shield that is in noutdoor use), the surface looses its smoothness.

You're right though that the elevation differences are too sharp, I'll have to try make ridges that have slopes on both sides. Also, the small grain is maybe unnaturally straight, some large-scale distortion could be a good idea. And later, I'll try some colour variations to the rings, the paint might well be the kind that sukcs into the wood, letting some colour of the wood through.
If the sigil is going to be based closely on the sprite, perhaps the ruby should be round too, like it is in the sprite.
I've been hanging onto the hook not because I want to strictly follow the sprite, but because it is a very distinct feature that sets the sceptre apart from just any old staff. The broblem with your simplified version is that unless you already know it, you probably don't see it as a sceptre first (to me it looks more like an ordinary torch). It's the same thing with the ruby: even though the real ruby might be close to a sphere, such shape in a simplified image does not make people immediately see it as a gemstone.
why is it so short and stumpy?
I don't want the aspect ratio of the image (or rather, its "bounding box") to go much over 1:2, so that it fits more easily onto objects of different shapes. If it needs to be put onto a very narrow tapestry, for example, a more elongated version can be made. Also, as mentioned above, a shorter shaft helps to put the ruby closer to the centre.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Simons Mith » March 20th, 2009, 11:53 am

Sgt. Groovy wrote:
If the sigil is going to be based closely on the sprite, perhaps the ruby should be round too, like it is in the sprite.
... It's the same thing with the ruby: even though the real ruby might be close to a sphere, such shape in a simplified image does not make people immediately see it as a gemstone.
You say 'people' - do you mean players of the Wesnoth game, or actual Wesnothians?

Show a citizen of Wesnoth the ultra-simplified image below, and they'll still instantly say 'sceptre of fire'. In fact, on consideration I think you're right about the hook; it alone is a distinctive enough feature. Possibly you don't even need the 'radiation lines' coming out from the gem. My sole remaining gripe is that changing the shape of the ruby to something we recognise as a gemstone quite possibly reduces its recognisabilty to a Wesnothian. [Edit: Late thought: And it's the Wesnothian heralds who supposedly came up with this sigil.]
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Skizzaltix » March 20th, 2009, 3:08 pm

Erm... How many Wesnothians are going to have to recognize this symbol, in comparison to how many players?
Although you do have a valid point, I think this is getting to the point where we would be putting realism in front of game play/design.

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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Sgt. Groovy » March 20th, 2009, 3:10 pm

Simons Mith wrote:You say 'people' - do you mean players of the Wesnoth game, or actual Wesnothians?
That is good question and I'd say both -- while the actual people viewing the sigil are the players, for whom the modern iconography works best, it can't be so modern that it would be in obvious contradiction with a quasi-medieval setting.
My sole remaining gripe is that changing the shape of the ruby to something we recognise as a gemstone quite possibly reduces its recognisabilty to a Wesnothian. [Edit: Late thought: And it's the Wesnothian heralds who supposedly came up with this sigil.]
It might well be that most of Wesnothian commoners haven't ever seen a picture of a gemstone, let alone a real one, but then, the sigil has been comissioned by the royalty and is used mostly by nobility, who are more familiar with real gemstones than any of us. :P

One of my objections to a plain circle for the ruby is that I think that the very focal point of the image should have some extra detail, a simple solid filled shape just isn't attractive (in the sense of attracting viewer's attention) enough. I'm still open for alternatives for the current version, and it's true that an octagonal shape wouldn't conflict the circle of the flame as much as the hexagon, but I would want to also find a way to present the facets also, in a way that would be as simple as they current pattern.
kitty wrote:what bugs me now is that the circle of the flames and the hexagon of the ruby don't harmonize well.
That's a good point and I have tried to change the inner shape of the flame, but it seems the circle really is pretty robust element -- whatever I change it into, polygonal, star-like, whatever, they all start to look like a circle again when the image is scaled down. It seems that I either must change the shape of the whole flame (whicH I'd rather not, because I like the current one a lot and I had to work hard to find it), or change the shape of the ruby closer to the sphere. The hook can be whatever, I only used the square because that's what it is in the sprite, and I haven't given it much thought until now.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Turuk » March 20th, 2009, 3:14 pm

I understand the argument about making it a symbol of the Sceptre of Fire that would fit into the setting of Wesnoth, but making concessions about whether it would be recognizable by people who do not exist seems a bit silly.

While I agree with you Simons Mith that we should try to make it as close to what we know as possible, I do not think that we should let that influence making a symbol that players should be able to recognize and like at first glance.


Just a note on the wood textures, Sgt. G, I don't think TSI has an issue with your raised effects so much as your grains went down sharply in a ring pattern and not next to each other in the usual lines that run through the grain. Unless you were showing the effect of a knot in the wood?
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Sgt. Groovy » March 20th, 2009, 3:38 pm

I don't think TSI has an issue with your raised effects so much as your grains went down sharply in a ring pattern and not next to each other in the usual lines that run through the grain.
This was my inspiration (minus the small dark knot) straight from the surface of my desk. The lines in a cut wood often do make elongated rings because the cutting direction doesn't completely align with the direction of the layers. The wood structure always has its own distortions as well, creating a whole universe of complex patterns.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Turuk » March 20th, 2009, 3:44 pm

Yeah, I figured you were pulling your idea from something along those lines (I have a similar piece of furniture in my room). I meant more along the lines that the circular region is longer and the lines not quite so raised to the degree as you posted and noted, as it would there would be a very very gradual, if any, gradient on the ring.
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Re: The new Wesnoth logo and the Loyalist sigil

Post by Sgt. Groovy » March 20th, 2009, 4:15 pm

I went and tried some octagonal faceted patterns. Opinions?
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