Deciduous trees

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Darker_Dreams
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by Darker_Dreams »

zookeeper wrote:
Darker_Dreams wrote:were the deciduous transition tiles unneeded, or did zookeeper just make them- because there are pine transition tiles.
I didn't make them yet. Be my guest. ;)
ah, on a second (closer) look I see the tops of the trees "leaking" through the castle... I'll add it to my to-do in case no one else gets to it (or providing variations if work overlaps...)
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turin
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by turin »

:D These make me want to go back and edit every single map I've made using forest tiles to be more aesthetically pleasing... cool!
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Max
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by Max »

how does the game manage to have random variations and still show the map with the exact same tiles every time i load it?
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zookeeper
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by zookeeper »

Max2008 wrote:how does the game manage to have random variations and still show the map with the exact same tiles every time i load it?
It chooses the random variation used deterministically, based on the surrounding terrains. So with the same map you always get the exact same variations.
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turin
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by turin »

Which is both a blessing and a curse - it means the map creator can make it look exactly how he wants it, given a certain set of possibilities, but it limits him to that set - e.g. there's no way to get the 4-hex-single-mountain-picture in certain sets of 4 mountain hexes (so if you want a single large mountain, you sometimes have to move around where it is on the map a bit until you get that one picture).

It'd be nice to get that "fixed", but it's better how it is now than if it were truly random and the map creator couldn't control it at all.
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Max
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by Max »

i've created a full set for the summer tiles:
deciduous_summmer_tiles.zip
(251.97 KiB) Downloaded 182 times
the transitions seem to work fine. i've reused the existing definitions of the pine tiles for testing...
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Simons Mith
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by Simons Mith »

If you could place a mountain as an object, that would allow you to 'patch' the terrain with the exact image you required at the exact spot you required it. It would be fiddly if you had to provide transition graphics as well, but it could be done, couldn't it? Although, looking quickly at the object key on the Wiki, it doesn't appear that pixel-accurate placement of items is available, and that might be a problem for multi-hex objects.
 
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Darker_Dreams
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by Darker_Dreams »

ne, n, and nw transition tiles in each of the seasons with matching arrangements. I've patterned them off the existing tiles to the best of my understanding. If these are good I can do the other three facings.
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transitions.zip
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Last edited by Darker_Dreams on February 20th, 2009, 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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solsword
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by solsword »

I hate to criticize, especially when I don't have a solution handy, but I'm just now trying to use the new forest tiles in a map and (at least to me), they don't look nearly as good as the pine forests. My two main issues are that there is a lack of macro-scale variation in tiles. If you look at these two screenshots:
Lots of deciduous forest
Lots of deciduous forest
A similar lot of evergreen forest
A similar lot of evergreen forest
You can see that the evergreen forest has some variant tiles that are much lighter overall than others. This makes it look nice and variegated when used in large quantities, and adds subtle details to small groves that make it look very good. In contrast, despite the color variation within one tile, the deciduous forest looks very uniform in large swaths because the average color of each tile is pretty similar. I realize that the color issue has been brought up before, but I think that between-tile variation is definitely a must, in terms of making large (and small) amounts of forest look good. Even if the trees aren't different colors in real life, the bumps in the land underneath cause differences in shadows that can make terrain seem more variegated from the air (see http://comps.fotosearch.com/comp/PDS/PD ... 006260.jpg as a reference). I would make the existing color differences between trees just a little more pronounced, and then arrange them into at least two "light" and two "dark" tiles that had different average colors (but which each also had internal color variation).

Also, the shading on the trees makes some of them look a little too rounded, in my opinion. Especially the widest tree (the one with the short, thick trunk), it looks a little too blurry, and combined with the shading, this makes it look like a smooth, round object. I'm not sure how exactly to fix this, especially since you have so few pixels to work with. Maybe it would look fine given other adjustments.

Finally, the deciduous forest tiles have much less overlap between trees than the evergreen tiles. This makes it look like a very sparse forest by comparison. The amount of underlying savanna texture that shows through isn't that different: plenty of it is visible in the pine forests, but the trees in the pine forests are grouped into denser clumps with open space between rather than being more evenly spaced. This even spacing in the deciduous forest adds to the perception of homogeneity and makes it look less forest-y. I would rearrange the trees on the current tiles to cluster them into clumps, even if that means that a well-formed trunk or branch gets tragically hidden.

Even as I offer criticism, I'm truly impressed by your trees. Individually, they are awesome, and I especially like the way that your fall trees have a carpet of leaves under them. But as much as they are awesome tree sprites, with the current arrangements, they don't add up to an awesome forest texture.

Also, in my criticism, I have said "I would...". If I get around to it in the next few days, I may actually try my hand at my own suggestions and post here to see what people think. I suspect that others may be better able to accomplish this, though, and others may also have different and more meaningful takes on my critiques.

Keep up the wonderful work, I'm really excited to see these textures being added to Wesnoth, as the whole seasonal variations thing gives more potential for campaign development, and showing the passage of seasons through changes in terrain, where appropriate, is a powerful tool for drawing the player into the game (Southbay from TRoW comes to mind immediately as a place where these textures could be put to good use).
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beetlenaut
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by beetlenaut »

solsword wrote:between-tile variation is definitely a must, in terms of making large (and small) amounts of forest look good.
I agree with all of that. The main problem is that there are only two variations right now. The pine forests have four. I plan to do some more work on this in a day or two, and there are several other people working on it as well. I'm sure it will look much better when it's all done.
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solsword
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by solsword »

I've made a first attempt at deciduous variations. I made two new tile variants along the lines of the old ones, using mainly darker trees for one and mainly lighter trees for the other one (I altered colorings on some of the trees used to achieve a cohesive affect). It still doesn't look as good as the pine forest, IMO, but it's a bit better than it was. I named my variants deciduous-summer-4 and deciduous-summer-5 (and took deciduous-3-summer and renamed it to deciduous-summer-3). Without changing any of the WML, this is the result:
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A more variegated deciduous forest.
A more variegated deciduous forest.
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turin
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by turin »

I think you need to vary the spacing more, as well as the color.

Also, one of the tiles has the shadow of one tree covering up the foliage of another - this should probably be fixed.
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Raijin
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by Raijin »

It's not really important, but I think i would be really cool if there was a spring version. :D
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zookeeper
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by zookeeper »

Someone should make:

- deciduous winter tiles with some snow (on the branches).
- mixed winter tiles with some snow (on the branches and using the snowy pines).
- some sparse variations of all types* for use on hills.
- the remaining next-to-castle variations of all types*.

*all types meaning: deciduous summer, deciduous fall, deciduous winter non-snowy, deciduous winter snowy, mixed summer, mixed fall, mixed winter non-snowy, mixed winter snowy.
Darker_Dreams wrote:ne, n, and nw transition tiles in each of the seasons with matching arrangements. I've patterned them off the existing tiles to the best of my understanding. If these are good I can do the other three facings.
Yes, those are mostly fine. The n variant has quite a large gap between the trees and the castle which should probably be closed up a bit. The dwarvish castle is the largest one, but even that doesn't require the treeline to be quite that far down.
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Re: Deciduous trees

Post by beetlenaut »

turin wrote:one of the tiles has the shadow of one tree covering up the foliage of another
Just a tip: You can keep this from happening by clever use of layers in your painting program.
Raijin wrote:It's not really important, but I think i would be really cool if there was a spring version.
It's been discussed in this thread. It wouldn't be that hard, just time consuming. If you want it, you may have to do it yourself.
zookeeper wrote:Someone should make: ...
I'm afraid it will have to be someone besides me. My job is going to take over my life for the next few weeks. I thought I might have time, but it looks like I won't. If it doesn't get done before I can work on it again, I'll do it, but it will be a while.
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