Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

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Cernunnos
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Cernunnos »

hmmm, that looks like fourteen less variations to do... :wink:

Well, sorry, haven't succeeded then... :?

Thanks, bye.
"While portrait art may be where Wesnoth gets its glamour, and sprite art may be where Wesnoth gets its zest, it's the terrain art that's so crucial to Wesnoth's polish - it's the canvas that the rest goes on." Sangel
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Thrawn »

Kest--you realize he's edited solely the water transition, not the other ones?

Of course. - Kest :annoyed:
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

this goes for they're/their/there as well
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zookeeper
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by zookeeper »

I'm not sure how much better you can make them just by tweaking the old tiles to begin with. Anyway, one potential thing you could try would be to also draw some of the underwater portions, just like the sand in the grassland-to-water transition gradually disappears underwater.
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JW
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by JW »

Maybe it's just me, but a problem I've always wondered about is why terrain in Wesnoth frequently looks like a bunch of bubbles when next to water? Look at the image on the previous page for a glaring example. This is what I think makes it look "bad," not the lack of 3-dimensionality. The mass should look like a ring, not a child's teething toy.

Okay, I'll link the teething toy image:
Image
Image

ps, Cernunnos, this is not a problem with your art, but rather a larger problem with terrains generally.
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zookeeper
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by zookeeper »

JW wrote:Maybe it's just me, but a problem I've always wondered about is why terrain in Wesnoth frequently looks like a bunch of bubbles when next to water?
Of course because no one has figured out and implemented a system which would do it better. It's not a choice of wanting to make things look bad, it's the fact that it'd be a lot more complicated and a lot more work to make it look better. If you look at the transition tiles themselves, you should soon see why.
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Cernunnos
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Cernunnos »

JW:

Because orange becomes orange, yellow becomes yellow and green becomes green, it's to say if you draw the pink A part (i think this is what you want), you will have the pink B part...
why.png
why.png (295.37 KiB) Viewed 3279 times
I have an idea or at least a concept... :)
but i'd like to know if it is possible to make a transition appear in the tile itself? like blank is my grass tile, black are adjacent tiles, gray is my grass-to-other transition:
alpha.png
alpha.png (646 Bytes) Viewed 3276 times
Can someone tell me if this is possible, and if yes, how?

Should i move to WML workshop? :lol2:

Well thanks anyway, bye. editted

Forget about this idea, i think it won't work in fact
"While portrait art may be where Wesnoth gets its glamour, and sprite art may be where Wesnoth gets its zest, it's the terrain art that's so crucial to Wesnoth's polish - it's the canvas that the rest goes on." Sangel
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Cernunnos
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Cernunnos »

Hi,

I searched how to make the dirt transition to water look better, and how make the "triple" transition dirt/grass/water as pointed by turin look better too.
As i said just above to JW, the main problem is that a transition should look well in the two cases A and B mentioned in the previous post (hope this is understandable)

After some searches, i think i found a solution, which mainly relies on makeshift, but which should work.

In the terrain-graphics folder is a file named corner_overlay.cfg.
This file contains a macro named CORNER_OVERLAY_PLF (or PLBF)

This macro, as far as i was able to understand it and as i understood zookeeper told, when he took the time to help, is designed to draw an overlay on a corner of a tile, in regard to the 2 adjacent tiles for this special corner.

So the basic idea was at follows:
-Draw basic transitions for dirt (for it to work when surrounded by water (B but round like i did already)).
-Draw corners for water overlaying the "normal" transition to make them look like the pink A case, and use them with the previous macro. These tiles should be drawn once for grass-dirt and once for dirt-grass (12 more tiles).

Of course each should match with each other etc... i pass on the details.
Well, here are some questions :

-Should i do that this way or have you any other solution?
-Would it be supported/don't use much CPU/etc... be acceptable for mainline without causing much problems?
-Would someone else than me make it works once the tiles are done?
-Do you care about the way dirt should look like?

Well this is basic questions, but it would be a lot of work, and i'm not able to do the coding part by myself, which is a big problem when it is about terrains...

So, this may seem basic questions, but i think it's an important point about the terrain tiles here, that's why i'm asking.

Maybe i should add: - if someone makes it work, is it possible to have an example for me to copy it where it should, to be able to test while doing the tiles by myself?

[edit] Just sent a PM to Jetryl about that.

Moderators, if you think this should go in ideas or WML, well, you have the power to...

Sorry, i don't want to seem redundant about this dirt, but the basic idea was to make it look better, which doesn't seem possible (at least for me) just using the "normal" transitions.

So, well, if you want usable dirt to make roads going to water properly, i want to help, but i need answers on how to help, it's to say how it should look like and how it should work.

Thanks a lot, bye.
"While portrait art may be where Wesnoth gets its glamour, and sprite art may be where Wesnoth gets its zest, it's the terrain art that's so crucial to Wesnoth's polish - it's the canvas that the rest goes on." Sangel
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Limabean
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Limabean »

one idea I had for the dirt-water transition was that there could be a sort of small pebble beach in addition to the improvements you'v made. They may not be dirt, but I don't think rocks are completely out of place in mud.

Anyway, i'm no artist so i'm just spouting my random thoughts. Take it or leave it. :)
Keep up the good work.
When a scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
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JW
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by JW »

Could this be solves by approaching the issue from a multi-hex standpoint, as per the mountains? I'm not exactly sure what that would entail, but I think something like that would take far too much effort. I am wondering if it's possible though.

Also, shouldn't transitions in corners be 3-tile sensitive anyway? Again, the effort may be large, but it would improve one of the very few places where Wesnoth (mainline) images are somewhat lacking.
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Kestenvarn
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Kestenvarn »

JW wrote:Could this be solves by approaching the issue from a multi-hex standpoint, as per the mountains? I'm not exactly sure what that would entail, but I think something like that would take far too much effort. I am wondering if it's possible though.

Also, shouldn't transitions in corners be 3-tile sensitive anyway? Again, the effort may be large, but it would improve one of the very few places where Wesnoth (mainline) images are somewhat lacking.
Anything that uses the same style as the mountains would be fantastic, although probably asking too much...
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Cernunnos
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Cernunnos »

Hi,

Don't know exactly what you mean with
Could this be solves by approaching the issue from a multi-hex standpoint, as per the mountains?
nor
Anything that uses the same style as the mountains would be fantastic, although probably asking too much...
But maybe the basic idea is about the same.

Since i may haven't been clear, let's explain with screenshots:

Here is the tiles without transitions :
1.png
1.png (57.07 KiB) Viewed 2912 times
ok, now with the actual transitions (well not the ingame' but mine, but that's the same):
2.png
2.png (80.47 KiB) Viewed 2917 times
Ok, now, my idea, with the previous mentioned macro (corner_overlay), the game check for what tile is up and what tile is left to draw a top-left corner, and check for the two left tiles to draw a left corner,
So top-left and left corners for water if adjacent tiles are dirt and grass look this way (well, they should look better, that's just a five minute sketch):
3.png
3.png (59.73 KiB) Viewed 2912 times
Ok, now let's put those corners with the actual transitions :

Image

Tada! (well as i said it's a 5min sketch)
But the fact is the engine can actually do this (the macro exists) and this is not affecting the all surrounded by water dirt tile, because it checks only the precise case where water as an adjacent grass tile at top and dirt tile at top-left, and for the second a dirt at top-left and a grass at bottom-left.

So this was my idea, needs 12 corners to draw, 2 macros (corner dirt-grass and corner grass-dirt), and should work properly.
note : The previous screenshots are from the gimp, not ingame, cause i don't know how to make it work.

Well hope you understood and hope this solves the problem, and more, hope someone would make it work if i actually draw properly the 12 corners =).

Thanks a lot, if you have anything to say about the method or whatever, just tell, so i won't draw 12 more tiles for nothing... :?

Thanks a lot, bye.
"While portrait art may be where Wesnoth gets its glamour, and sprite art may be where Wesnoth gets its zest, it's the terrain art that's so crucial to Wesnoth's polish - it's the canvas that the rest goes on." Sangel
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Kestenvarn
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Kestenvarn »

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Cernunnos
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Cernunnos »

The basic difference is that mountain cascades as eventual village cascades uses 1 tile only, mountain (or village), a pack of X mountain being replaced by the appropriate cascade.
Unless you want some cascades of dirt, i still don't know what you mean.
"While portrait art may be where Wesnoth gets its glamour, and sprite art may be where Wesnoth gets its zest, it's the terrain art that's so crucial to Wesnoth's polish - it's the canvas that the rest goes on." Sangel
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Kestenvarn
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Kestenvarn »

Okay, picture that instead of having a flat top-down grassy texture for Plains and such, it was given the same style as the Mountains - a photorealistic view of the landscape, at an angle you might see from an aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird%27s-eye_view

Image

Like that, but at a higher angle looking down, so there is no horizon. Probably closer to the ground, too:

Image
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Cernunnos
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Re: Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

Post by Cernunnos »

Hmm,

Kestenvarn, i assume your comment is for the tile itself, and more relief in the transitions...

I gave a try on the dirt tile itself :
dirttiles.png
I think it's too repetitive so far, i'll do some more pronounced variations, but i would like to have comments about the depth,
Well any critique about the look of it would be fine.
To be continued tomorrow...

Thanks, bye.
"While portrait art may be where Wesnoth gets its glamour, and sprite art may be where Wesnoth gets its zest, it's the terrain art that's so crucial to Wesnoth's polish - it's the canvas that the rest goes on." Sangel
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