Fencer, the challenger

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Sgt. Groovy
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Fencer, the challenger

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

Just when I was about to return to one of my favourite subjects, the fencer, I see that nahuan has already posted another version. Well, we can let them duke it out like real gentlemen of the blade. :twisted:
Attachments
fencer6.png
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

JAP
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by JAP »

Really nice sketch.
One slight detail that comes to my mind is that shirt (that i realize is practical because its easy to move in it) wold be pretty cold on a snowy map.
Hmm perhaps give him a thick vest or something so that he have an outfit that works the whole year round.

Edit: or perhaps a cape since the sprite use one.
Or it might just be me that would think about a thing like that :wink: So if not someone else agrees with me just ignore it.

Edit2: yes the elves are obviously insensitive to any kind of weather (both sprites and portraits) :wink:
Last edited by JAP on May 3rd, 2008, 9:19 am, edited 2 times in total.

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thespaceinvader
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by thespaceinvader »

The shirt's nicely done. I think you might have over-exaggerated the codpiece a little, though =P why are the lines there the thickest and hardest pressed in the whole piece?

The jaw seems a little long and flat, and the eyes are a little square, but i thikn those are things that would probably get picked up at inking.

I disagree about the clothing, though, JAP. If you look at some of kitty's elves, particularly the shaman line, you'll see they face similar issues, and are already mainlined. Similarly, putting him in a thick vest or cloak would be very impractical for desert or jungle - there's no one outfit which works in all terrains, particularly not when it's an outfit to make war in (armour is even more impractical, i believe, in all three mentioned terrains than any form of cloth...).
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kitty
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by kitty »

hey! nice to see finally something you did! :D


one can see that you really put a lot of love in little details like the rapier's hilt and so on!

i've got a few anatomical nitpicks:

* eyes are too big and too square-ish
* chin is too small and because of that the jawline is strange and too flat
* neck is too small, you should see a little more of it behind the ear (which is also a tad high) and the backline is too curved.
* head is too flat on the top. ( and i can't "read" what you intend his hairstyle to look like) and too big
* shoulders are too low and the jugular notch isn't centered


but more general and on a level of personal taste - i just don't like his attitude. he looks like a person i dislike on first sight. perhaps you could try to make him a little more likeable? :hmm:

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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

he looks like a person i dislike on first sight. perhaps you could try to make him a little more likeable?
Why? These are snotty aristo brats who have taken fighting to be their main occupation. They are bullies, troublemakers and they do it snobbishly and in arrogance. What's there to like?

I'll be redoing the fencer from scratch, I'm not terribly satisfied with it myself, it came out more like a concept sketch.

Meanwhile, here's a sketch for the duelist, except this time it came out a bit fancy for a standard unit. Maybe a character for some UMC? Ten points and a parakeet badge for the one who figures out the inspiration.
Attachments
duelist2.png
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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thespaceinvader
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by thespaceinvader »

Looks like King 'ennery the Eightf (Henry VIII) to me, from the fairly famous portrait. On which note, it's worth bearing in mind that he was a rather large bloke. This guy's arm, even considering the bloused sleeve, is HUGE...

That aside, it looks good to me.
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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

I can se how the beard and the hat make him look like Henry, but actually the pose and the getup were modelled after Caravaggio's "Fortune teller."

Here's something for the Master at Arms. Modelled after the Landsknecht style to deviate from the usual "Porthos" stereotype.
Attachments
masteraa2.png
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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Girgistian
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by Girgistian »

Looks good. The finger's of the left hand just seem to go too far in the wrist and the right forearm seems quite long (the sleeve enhances the impression, yes, but even if it didn't I think it would still be pretty long.)
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kitty
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by kitty »

hmm :hmm: - same answer like before: i love all the thought and time you invested in the details, equipment and clothing! but - you have some reoccuring problems with the structure beneath... anatomy is much more important than clothing style. some points applying to all three are:
- heads are too big (stereotype proportion would be 3 heads from the parting to the belt - yours have less than 2,5)
- tiny and too low shoulders
- small hands

if you spend some more work on the structure you have some nice starts for portraits! first sketch them naked and redraw them until they look right in every regard, then the planes of cloth (or armour) and not till then the details...



on the personality issue:
first of all level 2 and 3 don't look that unfriendly at all. especially the master at arms has a witty expression!
i just reread the unit description and it only says that they are the sons of the nobility with the unfortunately common practice of duelling... that doesn't make them villians. they should appear snobbish but not *evil*. furthermore you're not making the portrait of a campaign's villian one should like to hate but one for a unit one should recruit.

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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

anatomy is much more important than clothing style.
I know, and these are the first sketches where I mostly explore the clothing and what kind of pose looks good with it. I have noticed that I'm not very likely to get the anatomy right the first time anyway, so I rather pay more attention to general look and detail on the first sketch. Second time around I already know what sort of issues there's going to be and how much reference I'm going to need.
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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kitty
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by kitty »

but

.
.
.

the posture, facial expression and attitude will tell you much more about the character than the question if his shirt is lengthwise ore crosswise striped. those are details and therefore less important.
you need to nail his personality, think about light and dark areas, shape and so on! the general things first and then crowd it with details. your pretty detail will be worth nothing if the structure isn't clear.

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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

I agree with you completely, it's just that my creativity sort of works backwards. It needs the details as "seeds" that grow into the whole. :)
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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kitty
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by kitty »

of course you can work every way you want.

but i feel it's a cheap excuse to say "my creativity works" that way. it's about professionality. i believe one should train to work the right way and not the most convenient one. everytime i do an illustration i just want to start to paint - that's the way i feel. but that's not the best way. and then i force myself to do a series of thumbnails, work on the most interesting one, do some quick digi colour studies - and then finally start to paint. that's not the most intuitive way but the right one.
of course one shouldn't invest that much work and steps in a quick wesnoth portrait but still there is an order of importance in the workflow one should follow... you start with inspirations - fine. but then you do the basics, work on the sillhouette, repetition and all that. and afterwards top of that you add the details you think are necessary. you want to do a strong character design and that doesn't consist of little things but on the overall picture.

now i shut up. :P

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Sgt. Groovy
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by Sgt. Groovy »

I strongly disagree that there is one "right way" to do anything, especially creative work, people's brains just don't all function the same way. Forcing everyone to follow one strict procedure is like making left-handed people write with their right one. The end result is what should matter.

Here's another try on the fencer, I hope he's more likeable now (at least he looks less like a drag king).
Attachments
fencer7.jpg
Tiedäthän kuinka pelataan.
Tiedäthän, vihtahousua vastaan.
Tiedäthän, solmu kravatin, se kantaa niin synnit
kuin syntien tekijätkin.

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zookeeper
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Re: Fencer, the challenger

Post by zookeeper »

Absolutely the best so far. Probably the best of all your portraits IMO.

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